mrsmith

Layer Sets and Layout issue

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My students are setting up their layout documents, and when they change the layer set in the plan for a particular view (site plan, electrical, etc.) and then go back to the layout, every page of the layout has the layer changed. Any suggestions what we're doing wrong? Using X10.

 

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Look into "plan views". If you open the layout views you will notice that they are using the same plan view. Several threads and methods on the forum and in documentation.  

My preference is to use dedicated plan views, some set plan view to none. 

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You might find this information helpful:

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Dermot said:

As much as I think Saved Plan Views are a really good feature, I kind of wish we didn't turn them on in the shipping template.  It seems like I have to repost this every week or so...

 

I think the confusion is coming from the automatic linking by default of the layout view with its Saved Plan View. Apparently a lot of folks aren't realizing the automatic link is occurring. Maybe the default should be "None," with user control over this behavior in Defaults or Preferences

 

Having control in the "Send to Layout" dialog to either link the new layout view with a SPV, or not, would probably alleviate some of the confusion. Just seeing the option would help clue people in. Maybe a drop box of SPVs to link the layout view to...?

 

layout.thumb.png.97166ff6875c2dadd6901c9c06accb97.png

 

 

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The paradigm that Chief uses for Plans, Plan Views and Layouts is inherently complex. Powerful once understood, and simple for the lead software designer who designed the features, but still complex for a lot of users. It may be only natural and expected that users have a difficult time grasping the concepts. I know I did and even after 20 years still find some things complex and difficult to grasp.

 

So if Chief's software engineer has to post the same thing "every week or so...." what does that suggest? That the users need to be better equipped to use Chief? Or that Chief needs to be better equipped to design and or explain its software in a way that more people grasp the concepts quicker and easier?

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27 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

The paradigm that Chief uses for Plans, Plan Views and Layouts is inherently complex. Powerful once understood, and simple for the lead software designer who designed the features, but still complex for a lot of users. It may be only natural and expected that users have a difficult time grasping the concepts. I know I did and even after 20 years still find some things complex and difficult to grasp.

 

So if Chief's software engineer has to post the same thing "every week or so...." what does that suggest? That the users need to be better equipped to use Chief? Or that Chief needs to be better equipped to design and or explain its software in a way that more people grasp the concepts quicker and easier?

I don’t find plan views that complicated...but, that said it’s apparent that it’s confusing to many users.  Chief should not release these completely new features without a slew of training videos showing how the features work and how they can be used.  These videos should be comprehensive and thoroughly cover the topic...not some quickie drive-by sales video.  

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27 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

what does that suggest?

Powerful features are rarely simple-until we are replaced by AI that is.

 

From what I see a lot of folks just don't use plan views, very few bother to read the directions much less read about how to use new features, the default icon is to save the plan view rather than "save as" (which needs to be added to toolbar to use), compounded by the pop up message do you want to  save (plan view) which gets a knee jerk reaction of sure I want to save.

I think Chris may be on to something useful, IOW might work, with default being none (I'd want to be able to change that though)

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The Saved Plan Views are a different paradigm, especially coming from the way CA linked views sent to layout in the past with annosets being king. However, it is, in my humble opinion :), a great improvement. Having the ability for the SPV to remember the floor, defaults for that view, layerset, referenced views, etc. has saved me considerable time. Having said that, it is still difficult, sometimes, to not "change" things (defaults or floor, for instance) while in the SPV; old habits die hard having worked that way for years. Set up the plan views and leave them alone unless you intentionally want to make changes. If you want to make changes do a "save as" and make a new plan view; send that to layout and keep working. It is logical to me and my work flow. There are enough threads on this forum concerning this feature to help anyone understand it if they would just do a search first instead of posing the same question over and over. Are people confused, obviously. But it is a great feature and well worth learning.

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2 minutes ago, SNestor said:

I don’t find plan views that complicated...but, that said it’s apparent that it’s confusing to many users.  Chief should not release these completely new features without a slew of training videos showing how the features work and how they can be used.  These videos should be comprehensive and thoroughly cover the topic...not some quickie drive-by sales video.  

...nor do I but I also understand ANNO Sets and most of the other features in Chief but when a question comes up over and over again, my first reaction, as a company would be to ask what can we do better? Add options to a dbx? Better training vids? Dunno, but there's inherent crazy with a complex piece of software that I think just comes with the territory. 

 

How many users even understand ANNO Sets let alone use them? I bet the number would be shockingly low. Is there any way around powerful and complex as Mark suggests above? Dunno but if indeed a question arises over and over again, it's either simply part of learning a complex piece of software, or the complexity is not embraced well enough by the GUI and people get confused.

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1 minute ago, Ridge_Runner said:

The Saved Plan Views are a different paradigm, especially coming from the way CA linked views sent to layout in the past with annosets being king. However, it is, in my humble opinion :), a great improvement. Having the ability for the SPV to remember the floor, defaults for that view, layerset, referenced views, etc. has saved me considerable time. Having said that, it is still difficult, sometimes, to not "change" things (defaults or floor, for instance) while in the SPV; old habits die hard having worked that way for years. Set up the plan views and leave them alone unless you intentionally want to make changes. If you want to make changes do a "save as" and make a new plan view; send that to layout and keep working. It is logical to me and my work flow. There are enough threads on this forum concerning this feature to help anyone understand it if they would just do a search first instead of posing the same question over and over. Are people confused, obviously. But it is a great feature and well worth learning.

I'd be surprised to find any experienced users here who don't think Plan Views are the bomb (could be the best thing since Anno Sets IMO) but should new users know how they work intuitively somehow, or is posting here every week to clarify their usage again, part of the territory? Don't know the answers, but have a lot of empathy for those who take some time to really understand how Chief works.

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2 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

but when a question comes up over and over again, my first reaction, as a company would be to ask what can we do better?

I totally agree. CA does need a good training video "for the masses" on this one and promote it well. This is such a vital link for the preparation of condocs.

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16 minutes ago, Ridge_Runner said:

CA does need a good training video "for the masses" on this one

I suppose that is so but I wonder just how long that needs to be. I've watched very few videos, once in a while but not often. Was thinking the other day that they may actually inhibit learning but maybe I'm just old school. 

 

What I do- as soon as the reference manual is available for a new release I download it. Then go to the end of it "What's New in Chief Architect X.." I read through the first part, even though I read the migration guide before installing, when I get to the meat "New and Improved Features by Chapter" I bookmark it in the PDF and start rummaging around starting with whatever interests me most, or later what I'm using at the moment. Follow and all links to more info....

then again people don't read directions much and that isn't going to change; why do what works? :blink:

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I think that there's another thing we fall for a bit here on the forum and that is that the posters here truly represent the user base and I am quite sure it does not. The purpose of this forum is to help anyone with pretty much anything so the fact that there's a few users who don't get Plan Views, or Layouts, or Plans or Anno Sets or whatever should not be unexpected. 

 

Hopefully the OP got an answer to his question?

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If the same question gets asked every week... maybe the search feature should be enlarged, highlighted or emphasized more???  

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41 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

so the fact that there's a few users who don't get Plan Views, or Layouts, or Plans or Anno Sets or whatever should not be unexpected. 

More than a few I think. We see plenty of folks who are fairly regular on here that don't get them all. Since I switched from kitchens to working with pros I've not yet run into someone who uses plan views and very few that understand annosets (none that use them to the fullest) I  spend a fair amount of time setting these up for them, then I teach them ways to work and leave them alone so we don't end up with wonky layouts along the way.

 

Maybe there should be a sticky for FAQs with links to answers. Then again folks don't read the sticky posts either.

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A little extra thought regarding the workflow of someone who is not an expert user, and how the interface and the function is all presented to the user would go a long way.

 

Heck, unless it's turned off, we still get a warning when sending to layout about messing up the layout view by making changes to the layer set in the plan. But nothing within the flow of sending to layout gives a clue about what might happen if you monkey around with saved plan views. And since the program by default marries a layout view with a SPV, it's a recipe for confusion and mayhem.

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Maybe if the saved plan views had been called saved layout views, it would be more intuitive for some???

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47 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

I teach them ways to work and leave them alone so we don't end up with wonky layouts along the way.

 

Bingo!

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5 hours ago, mrsmith said:

 

 

When I first saw the thread about the new features in X11 and SPV I thought "wow" I'm just starting to catch on to Layer and Annosets.

I think I wore the question out about "didn't we still have to set up Annosets" etc., to work with the SPV tool;  and since I didn't get to use the software on a regular basis (because of my job description) I see so much I still have to learn!

And just now am getting to use it much more often since the boss saw that he could save some Design fees on our DB projects, I'm just now (almost every day) using it more, and with that, I must, and am  able to read the KB's, watch the specific Training Vids. I want to learn and use Saved Plan Views, but as with all the other great tools, I need to learn to use it correctly! The training videos are great, but are done with the Skilled User in mind, therefore some of the information I need to learn the tools, I have to get from you guys on the Forum who are willing to either explain it or provide me with a video that helps fill in those gaps of information I need.

I'm definitely grateful!!!!!

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2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

Hopefully the OP got an answer to his question?

...still curious

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4 hours ago, parkwest said:

Maybe if the saved plan views had been called saved layout views, it would be more intuitive for some???

 

Sorry, but I can't agree with this one.

I find the strength of SPVs is for navigating around the model in plan.

If I am on the first floor and want to zoom in to the bathroom area on the second floor to some detailing, I can do that with a SPV.

I may then want to go back down to the second floor and zoom into the kitchen area to add some notes.

I can do this very easily with a SPV.

The fact that I can send those views to layout if I want is a bonus. 

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6 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

...still curious

 

He may have missed it in post 2 (Mark) and 3 (Dermot) but the easiest Answer is to turn plan views OFF ie set them to None before you start sending to Layout....

 

Dermot's Post he linked too......

 

I have posted this information before but I might have to keep posting it until everyone has learned about Saved Plan Views.

 

From your description it sounds like you are sending views to layout that are linked to Saved Plan Views.  If you change anything associated with the Saved Plan View, such as the layer set or current floor, then this will affect your layout view.

 

Here are some ways to solve your problems:

 

    - You can stop using saved plan views by switching your Saved Plan View Control that appears in the default toolbar to "None".  You can also do this in your default template so that new plans won't start in a saved plan view.

 

    - You can unlink a layout box from a saved plan view by opening the Layout Box Specification dialog and setting the Linked Saved Plan View combo box to "None".  In X11, there is also a new edit toolbar button that will allow you to link or unlink a layout box from a saved plan view.

 

    - You can learn how to use Saved Plan Views.  If you use a different saved plan view for each layout view, you won't have to worry about accidentally changing them.

 

More information about Saved Plan Views can be found in the reference manual or in this video:

 

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/videos/watch/2421/saved-plan-views.html?playlist=100

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14 hours ago, glennw said:

 

Sorry, but I can't agree with this one.

I find the strength of SPVs is for navigating around the model in plan.

If I am on the first floor and want to zoom in to the bathroom area on the second floor to some detailing, I can do that with a SPV.

I may then want to go back down to the second floor and zoom into the kitchen area to add some notes.

I can do this very easily with a SPV.

The fact that I can send those views to layout if I want is a bonus. 

That is also how I use Saved Plan Views.  It’s to give me the ability to have two different views of a plan open at the same time without having to mess with changing Layer sets or Anno sets continuously. Then some SVP’s go to layout and some don’t. 

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20 hours ago, glennw said:

I find the strength of SPVs is for navigating around the model in plan.

 

6 hours ago, Michael_Gia said:

That is also how I use Saved Plan Views.  It’s to give me the ability to have two different views of a plan open at the same time without having to mess with changing Layer sets or Anno sets continuously. Then some SVP’s go to layout and some don’t. 

Same here.

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On 3/22/2019 at 9:41 AM, HumbleChief said:

I'd be surprised to find any experienced users here who don't think Plan Views are the bomb (could be the best thing since Anno Sets IMO) but should new users know how they work intuitively somehow, or is posting here every week to clarify their usage again, part of the territory? Don't know the answers, but have a lot of empathy for those who take some time to really understand how Chief works.

I've been with chief for 10 years and I haven't even bothered with them.

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