ED-209 Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 So... I should buy Vectorworks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidJPotter Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I suppose if one did one's own printing using color pages would be an option but most of my clients work for a living and would not spend the money for Arch D or E sized color pages. The difference between black and white versus color at the print shop is astronomical per page, so this aesthetic argument is rather lost on me. My clients want things built and not enshrined or glorified. DJP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_K Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 4 hours ago, DavidJPotter said: I suppose if one did one's own printing using color pages would be an option but most of my clients work for a living and would not spend the money for Arch D or E sized color pages. The difference between black and white versus color at the print shop is astronomical per page, so this aesthetic argument is rather lost on me. My clients want things built and not enshrined or glorified. DJP Much the same for me. My clients are mainly beer drinkers; that said it would be nice to have the options discussed here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northriver Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 It would be nice if you are developing a plat and wanted to show something nice in front of the City or County council when trying to get your project approved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 would also be nice for high-end clients who have $$$$ Lew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Its not about the money, its not about it being "nice", its not about "enshrining" anything, and its not about "glorifying" anything. It's about clear communication. Yes, the Vectorworks drawings look a lot nicer but I would argue that the reason they look a lot nicer is because we can very clearly see what it is they are trying to communicate and that makes them pleasant to look at. We use color, depth, lighting, shading, contrast, shape variations, etc. to understand what it is we're looking at. It only makes sense to utilize those same things when trying to communicate an idea. It only took me a few seconds to all but completely grasp exactly what it is I'm looking at in the OP's example. Give me the same drawing in black and white or with solid colors, without the shadows, without the gradient fills, etc. and it takes a lot longer and a lot more mental energy to figure out what it is I'm looking at. At the end of the day, I think there are very few things if any that are beautiful simply for beauty's sake but rather I think they're beautiful because we appreciate something else about them whether we realize it or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said: Its not about the money, its not about it being "nice", its not about "enshrining" anything, and its not about "glorifying" anything. It's about clear communication. Yes, the Vectorworks drawings look a lot nicer but I would argue that the reason they look a lot nicer is because we can very clearly see what it is they are trying to communicate and that makes them pleasant to look at. We use color, depth, lighting, shading, contrast, shape variations, etc. to understand what it is we're looking at. It only makes sense to utilize those same things when trying to communicate an idea. It only took me a few seconds to all but completely grasp exactly what it is I'm looking at in the OP's example. Give me the same drawing in black and white or with solid colors, without the shadows, without the gradient fills, etc. and it takes a lot longer and a lot more mental energy to figure out what it is I'm looking at. At the end of the day, I think there are very few things if any that are beautiful simply for beauty's sake but rather I think they're beautiful because we appreciate something else about them whether we realize it or not. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 11 hours ago, ED-209 said: So... I should buy Vectorworks? I used Vectorworks daily for real production work. Unless you plan on modeling your homes in that app, its hard for me to recommend it just for presentation work. I'm using Chief more and more and working to get a certain style I can start to live with since Chief can be more rapid through to plan production. That said, I think in 5 years time - unless Chief does massive overhaul and makes an effort to keep up, Chief will be type-cast for DIY and fan-boys from older times. Vectorworks and other apps are moving 10x the speed in development. A lot of the development has been geared more for commercial, but I see them adjusting back to residential soon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northriver Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 We pay for color drawings of street scape's and plans for presentations for getting projects thru preliminary plat approval. When we have 10's of millions of dollars of money at stake we can no longer show up to a Council hearing with a black and white drawing and a power point presentation. County and City Councils who approve large projects expect a professional presentation and expect to see something of professional quality (nice). Un-fortunately we do have do glorify what we are selling or it would be extremely difficult anything approved. We have to do the same for public hearings so people can understand the scope of our projects. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED-209 Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 Basically, I want some decent-looking trees and hedges that show up in a 3D bird's eye view. I don't want to use generic green spheres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 3 hours ago, ED-209 said: Basically, I want some decent-looking trees and hedges that show up in a 3D bird's eye view. I don't want to use generic green spheres. I assume you mean 2d birdseye view....and yes, Vectorworks is awesome at landscape design. You could probably pickup an older version of Vectorworks and get everything you need at a fraction the price of a new copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 16 hours ago, ED-209 said: Basically, I want some decent-looking trees and hedges that show up in a 3D bird's eye view. I don't want to use generic green spheres. Have you tried 3D trees and plants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED-209 Posted April 19, 2017 Author Share Posted April 19, 2017 On 18/04/2017 at 6:13 AM, glennw said: Have you tried 3D trees and plants? I have, but it takes ages to process the surfaces, as our computers are awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidJPotter Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 If it is aesthetic you must have, you must also be willing to make it aesthetic. This is not merely software based but rather end-user based. I agree with Michael above along that line. If your PC hardware sucks that is your responsibility not Chief's. If you require beauty, then create it using whatever you have to do so. Vectorworks is on sale or you can use what you have. The make break is how intent you are to have beauty and your competence to create it and or know what it is when you see it. DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 On 3/29/2017 at 7:29 PM, johnny said: I used Vectorworks daily for real production work. Unless you plan on modeling your homes in that app, its hard for me to recommend it just for presentation work. I'm using Chief more and more and working to get a certain style I can start to live with since Chief can be more rapid through to plan production. That said, I think in 5 years time - unless Chief does massive overhaul and makes an effort to keep up, Chief will be type-cast for DIY and fan-boys from older times. Vectorworks and other apps are moving 10x the speed in development. A lot of the development has been geared more for commercial, but I see them adjusting back to residential soon. I would like to think that CA listens very closely to what you have to say. I find it interesting that you are using CA more and more for production purposes yet you recognize that there are other apps that eventually may be as easy to use as CA in the near future and you may abandon CA and move to another program. Please CA, listen to JPC, if you can satisfy JPC, I would venture to guess that your product will appeal to the users who need both production as well as the design/presentation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 20 hours ago, dshall said: Please CA, listen to JPC, if you can satisfy JPC, I would venture to guess that your product will appeal to the users who need both production as well as the design/presentation. And it's not just for presentations. After all the years and all the "fixes", I just spent the better part of an HOUR working on a fairly simple 90d staircase with railing on the bottom part which ends at the wall. Simple right? Had to hit the delete key and draw the staircase 2D. And I am 110% certain I know what I am doing. The line in the sand I mentioned about a year ago, as to whether it's time for Chief and I to break up, is now just off my heels rather than just ahead of toes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 5 hours ago, joey_martin said: And it's not just for presentations. After all the years and all the "fixes", I just spent the better part of an HOUR working on a fairly simple 90d staircase with railing on the bottom part which ends at the wall. Simple right? Had to hit the delete key and draw the staircase 2D. And I am 110% certain I know what I am doing. The line in the sand I mentioned about a year ago, as to whether it's time for Chief and I to break up, is now just off my heels rather than just ahead of toes. I agree as well. Chief works so hard trying to make their tools super easy - but since they are unable to program their tools with every conceivable condition (even for simple situations), it ends up backfiring when you veer off their scripted course and spend countless hrs looking for a workaround that is adequate. Take stairs in Vectorworks. Very similar to Chief's options in the dialog box, but once you get to a point where pre-scripted options dont work you have the ability to explode any 3d object and finish with basic (but robust) generic shape tools. Like you drawing the stairs in 2D, the generic 3D tools allow for any changes to all the stair elements to customize completely. In fact, they even have a name for this: Hybrid Modeling. Right now in Chief we have no such ability. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakriverman Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 I love the Adobe Creative Suite for all things CA that need purdifiying. I realize not everybody has time to learn new software, and I too wish Chief could do plans as well as walk my dog - But hang in there! One day it may be able to! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 Quote but since they are unable to program their tools with every conceivable condition (even for simple situations), it ends up backfiring when you veer off their scripted course I favor standards, so I suspect CA could program for the 90% conditions (90 or 80 or 95 ???) Chief can NEVER do 100% of everything Chief follows NKBA standards pick some other standards and go with them too anything that falls outside those standards has to be done manually and maybe with work-aorunds I am still amazed that Chief doesn't have a chimney tool - they have been in use for thousands of years would Chief be able to do every possibility of chimneys - but surely there are standards Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Gia Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 ..."but once you get to a point where pre-scripted options dont work you have the ability to explode any 3d object and finish with basic (but robust) generic shape tools." Can everyone please hit the like button on Johnny's comment please? I feel Chief put this "like feature" in order to be able to quickly sift through all of our regular day to day wining with something significant. So more likes and it gets priority. I would love his ability. Imagine having the option of exploding any object and being able to modify and nudge things into precisely what you need?... Great comment! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopsaw Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 5 hours ago, johnny said: Chief works so hard trying to make their tools super easy - but since they are unable to program their tools with every conceivable condition (even for simple situations), it ends up backfiring when you veer off their scripted course and spend countless hrs looking for a workaround that is adequate. Thank you Johnny for skillfully putting this into words. This is a core issue that I have spoken to CA staff about and it is critical to the future of the software that it is addressed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 And to add insult to injury.....Added some framing notes, re-ran the PDF so that I could send it to client, and this is what my elevations look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kMoquin Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 Trippy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, joey_martin said: And to add insult to injury.....Added some framing notes, re-ran the PDF so that I could send it to client, and this is what my elevations look like. Yes, I get that too, "the shadows from previous model" ... sometimes... I do not know why... I have reported it..... maybe they are still working on it....... very frustrating...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 I just experienced Joey's issue again. I hit UPDATE ALL ELEVATIONS and everything was good. I do not remember that updating elevations fixed the issue, but it did this last time, and if that is the case, I'm god to go, no complaints. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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