3D PLUMBING LAYOUT ---


DeveloSpec
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I've got renewed interest in this topic as well. Since the local passage of the 2015 International Code with New York Amendments, the local plans examiner wants strict adherence to the 2015 Energy Code. I've been aware of HERS ratings and Manual J, S, and D submissions for completely new homes but now this his interpretation of the of the energy code says that even small dormer additions need Manual J and D. He wants us to provide duct drawings for forced air with the AACA designs for the hvac units. I jokingly asked when we do hot water baseboard will he want lengths of baseboard on the drawings. He responded no but he'll want calculations to prove whether the existing furnace and hot water heaters can handle the additional loads.

 

So I discussed this with another architect. We can either tell the clients this is not included in our fees and they will need to hire their own consulting engineer, for silli]y little dormer jobs and then probably lose every job lead we come across, or specify wall mounted mini splits for every room and instant hot water heaters for every new bathroom. Let the client pay extra later to have an upgraded electrical service installed for the additional loads. But then soon the plans examiner will wants us to size the service.

 

I am an architect, licensed in NY, NJ, CT, and FL. I am NOT  a licensed plumber, electrician, or HVAC contractor. 

 

I highly doubt that any information I put on the drawings for those trades would be followed by anyone that has their own license, especially for liability reasons.

 

I appreciate everyone's input and response on this topic.

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Here in California we have had to deal with this **** for many years now. I believe if you provide a Rescheck report, that will handle the furnace size and water heater requirements. We use a different program special for this state. As for the duct design, no way other than getting a hold of a HVAC engineer and let him or her do it, or at least guide you on size requirments. Same for the electrical meter loads. The best way of doing all this is just bribe him not to do it.

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Rescheck doesn't size the furnace. We've been using it for years but it won't satisfy this one plans examiner anymore. And I stress, one plans examiner. A few friends have had problems with him too, but no other examiners or other local town jurisdictions have gotten this crazy.....yet.

 

It'll be brutal going to the first few new client consultations and tell them I'm a registered architect, but unfortunately my fee doesn't get you a permit. You still need to hire three other consultants to get a permit for your 15' x 25' master bedroom addition. They won't understand. And they won't sign on the dotted line. It'll be like this until every local architect gets a few of these permit denials, and then we all realize we're in the same boat.   

 

Mean while, I've figured out how to use the molding poly line with some ducts I've downloaded from Sketchup Warehouse to create an HVAC plan. It's impressive  what you can do with a few object profiles. It did take a litle while because I wasn't creating my 3d symbols in an isometric like your supposed to. That realization was key. I'm reviewing an HVAC program I bought 5 years ago for one annoying job, and I'm looking at at some duct software from Wrightsoft. Now to work on the electric meter sizing and hot water heaters. I'll figure out how to pay for it and how to charge the clients for it when I get my MBA. Extra work order.........

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Edward:

 

why not sub out that task ???

 

I would provide the MEP trades floor plans

they would provide drawings of where things needed to go and sizing etc

 

I would add that to my permit set and the builder would submit

 

the client pays the fees - one stop shopping for the client

 

Lew

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14 hours ago, lbuttery said:

Edward:

 

why not sub out that task ???

 

I would provide the MEP trades floor plans

they would provide drawings of where things needed to go and sizing etc

 

I would add that to my permit set and the builder would submit

 

the client pays the fees - one stop shopping for the client

 

Lew

I usually do the permit filing because the client's haven't selected a contractor yet. That's also the reason they don't have MEP trades lined up for me to send out plans to their schematic drawings. But your way adds another problem. Do you just accept schematics from any tradesman and throw your stamp on it? That's a huge liability your assuming, of course unless your accepting drawings that they are getting stamped by their own engineer. I'm not sure why the town's aren't requesting this info be submitted by the plumber that is awarded the job, and attach this liability to the plumbing permit.

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If your are really going to draw the drains, you may want to 

throw in a note like this one.  

 

 

NOTE: FOR GRAPHICAL CLARITY,  SLOPES ON WASTE LINES AND VENTS
ARE NOT SHOWN. BUILDER SHOULD NOTE THAT GRAVITY WASTE 
AND VENT LINES SHALL MAINTAIN NO LESS THAN 1/4" / FT SLOPE.

IN ADDITION VENT FITTING CONNECTIONS SHALL RISE AT A SLOPE
OF NO LESS THAN 45deg FROM WASTE LINES.

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50 minutes ago, JJohnson said:

If your are really going to draw the drains, you may want to 

throw in a note like this one.  

 

 

NOTE: FOR GRAPHICAL CLARITY,  SLOPES ON WASTE LINES AND VENTS
ARE NOT SHOWN. BUILDER SHOULD NOTE THAT GRAVITY WASTE 
AND VENT LINES SHALL MAINTAIN NO LESS THAN 1/4" / FT SLOPE.

IN ADDITION VENT FITTING CONNECTIONS SHALL RISE AT A SLOPE
OF NO LESS THAN 45deg FROM WASTE LINES.

 

 

BTW,  I think this is such a stupid note  if the builder/plumber do to understand this,  it is time for a new builder/plumber.

 

This is how nutty the permit processing has got.  Somehow for the last 150  years,  the builder/plumber understood there was a slope required.  

 

I  wish that Donald Trump had lost the election and would of become head of the plan check dept. in san diego.  For every new regulation,  get rid of two regulations.

 

I am not picking on you Jere,  it's just that this is common knowledge for anybody that puts in plumbing. In fact I just wasted 4 minutes of my day responding to this.....  a sure sign of how much a dim wit I am.

 

I was talking to P. this past weekend and I was telling him I am ready to retire from the day to day drudgery of this business.  

 

I spend more time  noting that the  stair railing needs to be blah blah blah instead of investing my time in the design of the home.

 

Justs venting guys,  please ignore this rant.

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4 minutes ago, dshall said:

 

 

BTW,  I think this is such a stupid note  if the builder/plumber do to understand this,  it is time for a new builder/plumber.

 

This is how nutty the permit processing has got.  Somehow for the last 150  years,  the builder/plumber understood there was a slope required.  

 

I  wish that Donald Trump had lost the election and would of become head of the plan check dept. in san diego.  For every new regulation,  get rid of two regulations.

 

I am not picking on you Jere,  it's just that this is common knowledge for anybody that puts in plumbing. In fact I just wasted 4 minutes of my day responding to this.....  a sure sign of how much a dim wit I am.

 

I was talking to P. this past weekend and I was telling him I am ready to retire from the day to day drudgery of this business.  

 

I spend more time  noting that the  stair railing needs to be blah blah blah instead of investing my time in the design of the home.

 

Justs venting guys,  please ignore this rant.

You forgot add that crap runs down hill, payday is Friday, and don't chew your fingernails.

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12 minutes ago, dshall said:

 

 

BTW,  I think this is such a stupid note  if the builder/plumber do to understand this,  it is time for a new builder/plumber.

 

This is how nutty the permit processing has got.  Somehow for the last 150  years,  the builder/plumber understood there was a slope required.  

 

I  wish that Donald Trump had lost the election and would of become head of the plan check dept. in san diego.  For every new regulation,  get rid of two regulations.

 

I am not picking on you Jere,  it's just that this is common knowledge for anybody that puts in plumbing. In fact I just wasted 4 minutes of my day responding to this.....  a sure sign of how much a dim wit I am.

 

I was talking to P. this past weekend and I was telling him I am ready to retire from the day to day drudgery of this business.  

 

I spend more time  noting that the  stair railing needs to be blah blah blah instead of investing my time in the design of the home.

 

Justs venting guys,  please ignore this rant.

 

 

I'm working on another one so you can draw roofs flat and just add a note that they are supposed to slope.

 

FYI, the note is from a plan set designed for build it your self clients, by a back yard cottage designer.

There was even more to it, including a drawing of a vent fitting on a horizontal run needing to be at a 45 or greater

degree take off.

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2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

You forgot add that crap runs down hill, payday is Friday, and don't chew your fingernails.

 

Thanks,  I  should of added that.  I think you guys in CALIF. can probably relate to this...  I find myself trying to guess what special pecadillo the next plan checker will have.

 

I keep saying to myself...  "send it in...  send it in... send it in,  let them tell me what they want this time".

 

It is a slow painful death I go through with each project

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38 minutes ago, dshall said:

 

Thanks,  I  should of added that.  I think you guys in CALIF. can probably relate to this...  I find myself trying to guess what special pecadillo the next plan checker will have.

 

I keep saying to myself...  "send it in...  send it in... send it in,  let them tell me what they want this time".

 

It is a slow painful death I go through with each project

Scot, be thankful you haven't had to deal with OSHPD. I was owner's PM on a Hospital project in the Central valley from 2010-2015 and I thought I would pull what little hair I had out. Got back to TN and thought things would settle down. Now, in this little One-horse jurisdiction I'm working in being held hostage by a Electrical AHJ because of his interpretation of the Electrical Code.  The EEOR says, "that's not a requirement" but the AHJ says, you want your final?  So the saga goes on.

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11 hours ago, JJohnson said:

 

 

I'm working on another one so you can draw roofs flat and just add a note that they are supposed to slope.

 

...

lmao. good one!

 

Reminded me of a prospect from long ago showing up with his plans drawn on paper grocery bags... he had a few notes on his plans saying the same.

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Quote

 

Do you just accept schematics from any tradesman and throw your stamp on it?

 

Edward:  I don't stamp/sign the plans the builder does

the trades work for the builder

 

its a symbiotic relationship

 

the trades sign their own pages if/as needed

 

Lew 

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24 minutes ago, lbuttery said:

I don't stamp/sign the plans the builder does

the trades work for the builder

 

its a symbiotic relationship

 

the trades sign their own pages if/as needed

Our jurisdictions are a little more formal than that. Trades cannot sign/seal their work because they aren't issued that type of license. They only have licenses (more like a business certificate) that allows them to work in the particular town or county and it signifies a very basic understanding of their trade. Usually framers and builders fall into this category. Plumbers and electricians have a higher level of licensing. In our area builders/contractors have no legal ability to submit drawings on their own.

 

But for town submissions the drawings, schematics, calculations, etc.. need to be signed and sealed by a design professional as required by State Law. So you need either a Professional Engineer, Registered Architect, and in some cases, a Licensed Land Surveyor.

 

Almost none of the HVAC contractors around here have the ability to size anything with Manual J S or D. They eye ball it. I've red that most systems are oversized by 30% to 150%. That's partly the ICC reason for requiring designed systems now. I've done some inquiring and a few MEP engineers I've spoken to said they probably wouldn't want to get involved for anything under a $3,000 fee. So I'm looking for a different option.

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Edward:

 

yes, EVERY jurisdiction is different even those in the same state

 

I did most of my work in the DC metro area that included DC, MD VA and multiple counties for each

all different

 

this is what we were able to do in those jurisdictions

the builders didn't use architects and for some of the projects we subbed out the drawings to the trades for their part

 

the builder would sign/submit the plans

 

If it won't work in your area - then ???

 

Lew

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  • 5 years later...
On 3/8/2014 at 5:05 PM, joey_martin said:

Electrical plans are required for almost every jurisdiction I have submitted plans in, MP is not. Maybe that is why. The industry (architecture) standard is to include an electrical plan so I have to guess that's why those tools have been included to the extent they have. And, IMO, the layout of the electrical fixtures and outlets/switches have much more to do with design decisions than where the air handler or main trunk line or main drain line will be.

This! Every last single word I agree with.

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