3D PLUMBING LAYOUT ---

[DeveloSpec]

good afternoon,

I have a simple 1 bedroom floor plan and I am designing a 3D plumbing layout as seen in the photos. 

 

Since this is a 3D software, I am surprised that the developers have not created more MEP tools to create such 3D layouts like this.

 

I had to import a 3D symbol of a pipe to do it this way.

And as you can see, there is no elbows or anything like that..i had to use all 90 degrees connections.

 

does anyone know how I can get these waste lines (yellow) on a 1/4" slope?  I want to simulate the plumbing layout to the EXACT specifications so there is no guesswork involved for the plumber.. (and to eliminate any excuses he may have for wanting to lay it out the way he wants to etc etc)

 

And any way to create more realistic pipes, connections, elbows..etc.?

 

any input would be great.

[GerryT]

This can be done, somewhat, using 3D molding lines and circular profiles as the pipe. No need to import a symbol. You can easily make all of the turns by working between ortho views and breaking and turning the line in the right direction. Multiple monitors makes this very easy to do. The slope can be set accurately by adjusting the angle from xy field in the selected line DBX field, or you can just "eyeball", but I doubt that you would notice on a 3D image -- Best to use a notation there. You may find it difficult to select the molding line, so just make up a molding layer set and lock everything except the molding lines.

Only real problem is in transitioning from one size to another as Chief will not transition different size moldings.

You would have to create transition fitting symbols, which is simple to do but tedious, and cut the same into the 3D molding line. Use the revolve tool to create Transitions. You only need to create one size and then re-size it for different size pipes. Positioning is difficult and tedious because there are no snaps provided although you can somewhat position by looking at the selected line values or use the arrow keys and set the grid snap at a low value (.1"). Insertions can be made by breaking the line in small segments and setting the fitting segment to "no molding", then move in the fitting.

The Chief video on spiral pipe should provide some direction and ideas.

In short this can be done and is fairly straight forward but very time consuming to get the fittings looking right.

Much easier to just use a heavy line(s) and notations. I don't believe Chief intends to provide this level of detail anytime soon?

[RodCole]

tedious,  Positioning is difficult and tedious.  edits mine, but it does sum it up rather well.

In short this can be done and is fairly straight forward but very time consuming to get the fittings looking right.

Much easier to just use a heavy line(s) and notations. I don't believe Chief intends to provide this level of detail anytime soon?

 

Compared to other programs that provide a UCS plane to work with, CA is not in the running if you are interested in production.  As Gerry described, a great many things can ultimately be accomplished with molding lines and Solid Primitives.

 

The problem I have found is that even if you do spend the time to become accomplished with CA tools and methods, you will still not have all of the tools and capabilities that other software provides in this area.  An example would be a project I am working on now where there will be serveral trenches with various utility lines connecting different buildings on the property.  I can export the terrain from CA and convert it to a solid and subract the excavated portion.

 

I am just getting started on this phase now, and I have not attempted this before in CA, but I am relatively confident that I have the tools I need to do the job when using a more powerful solid modeling program.  I am very glad the CA does have the capabilities that it does provide, and a great many things can be done with if you are determined enough.  I have been down that road, and I came out of it with an appreciation of what CA can do, and a fairly good idea of what it doesn't do well.

[lbuttery]

I started with Chief 9,5 in 2004 and there were calls from years prior to that for MEP tools

 

been many calls since then and ....

 

Lew

[dshall]

 Hey Develospec,  I like your plumbing diagram.  Really like the way you used the colors.  Trying to show a 1/4" per fall seems like a lot of work to go thru.....  but I get it.....  you want it.  But I have to say for the last 40 years I have been in the business,  somehow the plumbers have figured out this stuff without me telling them how to do it.

 

It's so funny now as to the level of detail that is expected/required/needed for a set of house plans.  My favorite analogy is the framer that needs a detail to show him the required penetration of a 16d toenail and the required edge distance.

 

I recently did a job,  had to go back to the plan checker 3 times to work out that the 4' long 42" hi railing wall at some stairs (you know,  2x4 @ 16 oc with drywall each side) ,  that was secured at each end to a wall,  met the 20#/l.f. horizontal load requirements.  Is that nutty?  Can you imagine how much it cost the client to pay me,  the engineer,  the plan checker,  the permit runner,  the print shop to prove to this nitwit that a 42" hi wall that is 48" long that is nailed at each end to a wall,  will not fall over if someone leans against it.  Common sense people,  let's use some common sense.  At least I did not have to detail the 16d nailing connections.......  heck,  why am I complaining?

[DRAWZILLA]

I feel your pain, buddy, it's brutal around here. This is what I have been able to get by with lately, but who knows how long it will last.

 

 

[dshall]

I feel your pain, buddy, it's brutal around here. This is what I have been able to get by with lately, but who knows how long it will last.

I use ply on exterior face down over double and then an h-2.5 at interior side at stud to rim.  Pretty much the same idea.  

[dshall]

BTW, I just viewed CA's video on the spiral ducting and the prebuilt elbows ca has. Seems like that method could be used for the plumbing diagram. Just resize the pieces for the plumbing pipes.

[PhoenixPhlash]

As Lew indicated, we've been down this road before. I've never known of a building department that's required a 3D view of the plumbing as it relates to the fixtures in 3D. All they require, and it's usually only the Commercial applications, is an isometric that indicates sizing. It doesn't have to be to scale, it doesn't have to slope, it doesn't have to be in color...... Just some lines with size indicator loops - simple CAD. I've been doing these things for almost 50 years, and I've never had a plan checker tell me that I didn't show the correct slope, or how much oakum and lead needed to be in the bell and spigot cast iron joints - yes, I was 14 years old, crawling under houses with a ladle full of molten lead to pour into a cast joint and then have to cork it, and come back for more lead. In fact, I still have all of my old tools (pot, ladle, corking irons, & ropes, and even a few boxes of oakum).

 

Anyway, my feeling is that if you do a fancy 3D plumbing system drawing, and the plumber does it that way, guess who is responsible if it isn't right (venting, sizing, wet vents, slope, etc.). Just lines with sizes, based on the code, done.

[lbuttery]

George:

 

agreed, let the trades do their work

 

however, the same as Chief has electric tools (E in MEP)

why not have some dedicated M and P tools

 

it helps to plot M and P "In general" to avoid collision detection

and other designing issues

 

IOW,we can show the trades "it goes about here" and "be next to X"

 

Lew

[joey_martin]

Lew, the next time you tell a plumber how to plumb a structure, and he agrees with you...let me know how you did that.

 

And there are Mech & Plumb tools. There are fixture symbols, line types. mech equipment, vents, floor and ceiling registers, etc....

[lbuttery]

Joey:

 

I have done it many times

 

I don't tell them "exactly" but I do give "direction"

 

it also helps to do the MEP plan and then get the trades feedback

as they may say B instead of A

 

then the design is changed or a compromise is reached etc etc etc

 

if this is such a problem then why does Chief have electrical tools ???

 

Lew

[joey_martin]

Electrical plans are required for almost every jurisdiction I have submitted plans in, MP is not. Maybe that is why. The industry (architecture) standard is to include an electrical plan so I have to guess that's why those tools have been included to the extent they have. And, IMO, the layout of the electrical fixtures and outlets/switches have much more to do with design decisions than where the air handler or main trunk line or main drain line will be.

[GerryT]

The primary difference between electrical and MP lies in the codes. The electrical does not require any significant level of functionality. It is chiefly a safely code.  The plumbing code requires a minimum level of performance. – Toilets must flush.

 

Therefore, in the electrical, functionality is required by the designer. i.e the placement of lighting fixtures and switches.  Other than that, most electrical plans are just “fluff” to pacify unfamiliar reviewers as most electrical plans almost never address code other than receptacles.

 

For the plumbing, performance is built in to the code, so that layout is covered and usually need not be addressed by the designer. Although most larger authorities do now require a isometric or a piping layout for anything over 3-4+ bathrooms. It’s hard to “screw up” 1-2 bathrooms using the minimum 3” drain pipe.

 

The chief difference here is in the higher order structures where minimum requirements may not meet the comfort level required. So it really depends on the target user and the level of services offered.  

 

I can’t imagine that the designer of a commercial structure or a large complex residence would allow those decisions to be completely left to the “low Bid” sub-contractor.  Whether one handles this via specifications or plan details is really a matter of convenience for the designer/builder. I seen both but in many cases one or the other is required. IMO.

 

Chief’s decision to not offer MEP tools limits its target base and leaves a lot on the table for other designers and their software who will realize the gains in offering those services.

[lbuttery]

I can only re-state that there are plans where I had to

show basic M and P layouts for residential

 

so I would like the tools to be there for when I need them

 

Lew

[DeveloSpec]

@dshall, thanks for your likings.

 

I understand that this extensive plumbing diagram is not 'required', however I like to provide it to the plumber because why not?

This way everyone can see where the pipes run, and that they do not interfere with any other mechanicals so there is no surprise change orders because of a lack of forsight on my part of where the plumbing needs to run.

 

I have designed some kitchen and bathrooms purely based on an aesthetic performance and the plumbing lines were a mess running in every direction, interfering with everything because I did not look at the big picture from the start.

 

When I design a plumbing diagram like this, I am always able to optimize the design and flow, minimize materials and ultimately cut costs.  Since I am the designer and the developer, that is a priority for me.

 

Usually "designers" just want it to look good, and do not necessarily have forsight of what is behind the walls.

[rgfeher]

BTW, I just viewed CA's video on the spiral ducting and the prebuilt elbows ca has. Seems like that method could be used for the plumbing diagram. Just resize the pieces for the plumbing pipes.

 

Scott,

I searched for that vid with no luck

Can you tell me where it's located?

[Rich_Winsor]

Is this the video in question?

[dshall]

Is this the video in question?

That's the one.

[rgfeher]

Thanks both

 

[Greg_NY61]

I just came across this and I was wondering how you guys create plumbing riser diagrams (if you create them) with Chief?

[HumbleChief]

Greg do you mean a plumbing isometric drawing?

 

Here's a gas line iso just done with CAD. Plumbing adds a couple fixtures and various lines but pretty simple overall.

 

 

 

[lbuttery]

My partner Joe has created a way to show riser diagrams in 3D.

These diagrams are schematics only (fake floorplans) and we plan to keep playing with this concept till we find a way to get them to work with real floor plans.

The issued being how do you so them using real floorplans without getting two many walls showing and having some appliances on wall A and others on wall B and being able to tell the difference, etc.

He also had to use a pedestal sink in the kitchen because a regular kitchen sink just couldn't be identified as a sink visually well enough.

Note: the "drain waste vent" diagram isn't included here but could be.
The Wash DC permit dept rejected two plans by two archtects because the Hot/Cold water riser and the gas riser diagrams were missing and the builder aske us to create these diagrams.

Just click on the appropriate camera to see the riser diagram in 3D.

Anyways, here is the riser diagram plans in X1.

If anyone has any ideas on how to improve this method, please share.

Lew

1318_RISER_DIAGRAMS.zip

[Greg_NY61]

Thanks Larry and Lewis, I was thinking doing it the same way, I just wanted to make sure there is nothing hidden like an automated feature or already made cad detail which can be modified.

 

Thanks again!

[Chopsaw]

I believe this is the correct link to the video that you were referring to :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkD-flpiT6M&list=PL7J4ch5cuz98Ojm8puit9VqTk_W39avaa&index=35