DRAWZILLA Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 OK guys, if anyone is the a**, its me, and don't you forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Scott, Count me in if you want to do a GTM on this. As long as it isn't in them middle of the nite for me. I will be back home from travelling tonite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'm in also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Any possibility to just listen in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Hey guys, I'm going to Bluesapalooza this weekend, so I will shoot for next weekend. Anybody who wants to listen in is welcome. Glenn, I will email you tomorrow for some good times for you. Maybe afternoon our time which will be ..........errrrrrrr... Tomorrow morning for you, 17 hours ahead I think. I would rather not spend a lot of time modeling a situation, Instead, if we all have some ready built models we can discuss, we should get much more out of the session. Perry, please help with some models with over stack roof framing and examples of where we need better control of eaves and fascias. It would be super if we could reach some kind of a consensus in regards to what structural modeling issues we have. I know we all have issues with stairs, but I want to stay away from that in this workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Larry, Is this what you're looking for? I deleted your foundation, established new floor defaults, and rebuilt the foundation. I did have to modify several foundation walls. Bill, don't you need a concrete stem wall between the garage slab and the raised wood floor foundation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Emery Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't think that there is anything incomprehensible or sinister about the floor defaults, or the structure tab. To me it's more about careful setup of the floor defaults, and an understanding of what happens in the structure tab. I want to set my default to get most of what I want, and then use the structure tab for those rooms that must differ. I notice that the structure tab will allow me to do anything (within reason) I want if I don't have a floor below; so it can be to my advantage to get my main floor correct before building the foundation, or floor below. Joe advocates for working from the top down, and I believe this is the correct approach. I think that most casual users don't take a structured systematic approach to setting up their defaults, figuring that they can just dive in, no matter what the defaults are, and that they'll be able to work it out in the end. The problem with this approach is that I end up with way too many variables, and I don't even know where to start to make the necessary corrections. In the end, it is much more time consuming to sort out these ill conceived variables than it is to get it right from the inception. I think we get the idea that Chief is very simple, and very forgiving as we draw along the X and Y axis. Things are way more complicated when we start to work in the Z axis. The defaults, and the structure tab appear deceptively simple, but the combined effect of careless setup, while trying to modify impossible situations computationally in the structure tab result in error messages, and the inability of the program to understand what we want it to do. Chief can't comply, and we become frustrated. The bottom line for me is careful setup of the defaults. It's false economy to just dive in and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Emery Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 'Bill, don't you need a concrete stem wall between the garage slab and the raised wood floor foundation? " Usually yes, but I don't think that is what Larry was trying to show. You'll notice that I posed it as a question. He has an existing garage that he is converting to living space at -24" with its existing slab footing. I could have shown the slab with an adjacent stemwall and footing for the new addition, but again, I don't think that's what he wanted. I think he is using the existing garage wall as the bearing wall for the new addition. Perhaps Larry will let us know more precisely what he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 ,,,,,,,,,, I notice that the structure tab will allow me to do anything (within reason) I want if I don't have a floor below"............... This is a very powerful statement and a method I used for awhile. Have gotten away from it recently, but there were some definite advantages to this method and I am not sure if there is a downside........ Assuming foundations are manually built.EDIT: I may not of been clear...... For a slab foundation I was not using FLOOR SUPPLIED ROOM BELOW, yet I still built the mono slab on the level below yet it was not defined as providing floor for room above. So now I am not so sure as to what Bill Emery was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Emery Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Scott, In this case I used "Floor supplied by the foundation room below" for the existing garage, and then Auto built the foundation. If Chief knows what I have above; it will do a good job or auto building what is below. Chief's programming got me close to what I wanted, and then I made a few changes. Chief actually put a footing and stemwall along the existing garage wall in question; but I changed it to a mono slab (turned down footing), thinking that was what Larry wanted to show. Anyway, I think Chief does a pretty good job of figuring out what we want, but we will probably have some editing with auto built foundations. I'm not sure exactly what you asked, and I'm not sure if I provided you with a relevant answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I am pretty sure it looks like I ignored the defaults and just set about drawing a house and was hoping for something to magically work but that's far from the truth. This model was fine for a long time as I've been working on it for quite some time. Then it wasn't fine as I must have changed something unbeknownst and that room height/floor height went south. FYI the lower room is an existing room addition, not a garage, and the work to be done, is more room addition on the upper level though that shouldn't matter much. My biggest question is contained in the last video. I'll go back and post it here. I took Perry's model, which you can download, and I took a room that had the wrong heights, changed them to be correct in the room structure dbx and every other room changed heights. This has to be what I did somewhere along in the model and that's the part I don't get. I would get that -31 floor and 104 ceiling height over and over and even changing the single room height would get me that same -31/104. Must have changed the defaults? Here's the model as posted by Perry https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/6065-more-structure-dbx-challenges/?p=53240 Here's the part I find difficult to understand and the endless loop I was stuck in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I think Larry that hallway would have to be divided in order to be resized independently. I'm not that much of an expert at this and I haven't played with it much, but I think this the only way it will work, also that hallway should be named Hallway (that could be also a problem). Because when the room is connected to another room by door CA thinks that the adjoining rooms should match as elevation goes. When you divide a room in half with divider tool, it creates 2 different spaces and you can drop one or the other independently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't think that there is anything incomprehensible or sinister about the floor defaults, or the structure tab. To me it's more about careful setup of the floor defaults, and an understanding of what happens in the structure tab. I want to set my default to get most of what I want, and then use the structure tab for those rooms that must differ. I notice that the structure tab will allow me to do anything (within reason) I want if I don't have a floor below; so it can be to my advantage to get my main floor correct before building the foundation, or floor below. Joe advocates for working from the top down, and I believe this is the correct approach. I think that most casual users don't take a structured systematic approach to setting up their defaults, figuring that they can just dive in, no matter what the defaults are, and that they'll be able to work it out in the end. The problem with this approach is that I end up with way too many variables, and I don't even know where to start to make the necessary corrections. In the end, it is much more time consuming to sort out these ill conceived variables than it is to get it right from the inception. I think we get the idea that Chief is very simple, and very forgiving as we draw along the X and Y axis. Things are way more complicated when we start to work in the Z axis. The defaults, and the structure tab appear deceptively simple, but the combined effect of careless setup, while trying to modify impossible situations computationally in the structure tab result in error messages, and the inability of the program to understand what we want it to do. Chief can't comply, and we become frustrated. The bottom line for me is careful setup of the defaults. It's false economy to just dive in and hope for the best. Agreed, and I think it probably looks like that's the approach I took but I did not. I might have had the defaults set up wrong but I went through them systematically when first starting the model and the floor level were correct for a very long time, then they weren't. I know how lame that sounds and I must have changed something, somewhere, but please if someone has the time explain, that last anomaly. I changed the ceiling height in one room and all the rooms on that level changed their floor and ceiling heights, ignoring the new, and corrected by Perry, defaults.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 I think Larry that hallway would have to be divided in order to be resized independently. I'm not that much of an expert at this and I haven't played with it much, but I think this the only way it will work, also that hallway should be named Hallway (that could be also a problem). Because when the room is connected to another room by door CA thinks that the adjoining rooms should match as elevation goes. When you divide a room in half with divider tool, it creates 2 different spaces and you can drop one or the other independently. Maybe, not sure that explains how all the other rooms changed heights with the now corrected defaults and the correct values entered in to the structure dbx of that single room. ALL the rooms reverted to the -31/104 heights that was the problem to begin with. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Hey guys, I'm going to Bluesapalooza this weekend, so I will shoot for next weekend. Anybody who wants to listen in is welcome. Glenn, I will email you tomorrow for some good times for you. Maybe afternoon our time which will be ..........errrrrrrr... Tomorrow morning for you, 17 hours ahead I think. I would rather not spend a lot of time modeling a situation, Instead, if we all have some ready built models we can discuss, we should get much more out of the session. Perry, please help with some models with over stack roof framing and examples of where we need better control of eaves and fascias. It would be super if we could reach some kind of a consensus in regards to what structural modeling issues we have. I know we all have issues with stairs, but I want to stay away from that in this workshop. I would love to play Scott and we can use this model if it will help. Here's the challenge for me. I can take a new plan and set up a similar model with correct defaults, floor heights, structures etc. in about 5 minutes max. I know it doesn't look like that's true but it is, and I tried it again to compare this model's anomalies. So I have no real problem with the initial model. Something I did caused that -31/104 endless loop and I couldn't find a way out. Maybe there's a basic change I made that messed things up. Not sure. What about that last weird change the single room and change every other floor height thing? Is that expected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 One thing I would like to clarify. In the Structure dbx, if you change the Ceiling Height you are essentially changing the plate heights. Scott indicated that it would not move the Roof up or down and I said it would. Both statements have some validity. If "Auto Rebuild Roofs" is on the Roof will move up or down. If that setting is off the roof won't be changed - but the plate heights will change and depending on what is above (another floor for example) with rooms that may not span more than one room below the results can be confusing. This is probably the one reason that it's critical to work from the top down when setting these values. It is also a good reason to get all the rooms set before building the foundation and the roof. Those tools rely on the rooms, but once the foundation and roof have been built it can be difficult to get everything to work when things are changed. For example, I usually have an "Attic Floor" that encompasses the entire boundary of the floor below. If I subsequently change the ceiling height of a room below that floor, my "Attic Floor" is moved up or down accordingly and all other rooms are effected. I am not sure if this was true in X5 or X6 but it's definitely true in X7. To avoid this, I simply break up the "Attic Floor" with room dividers that match the places where I want to change the ceiling or floor heights. It can be tricky to control. I understand Larry's confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Larry, Try this: Delete all Roof Planes and the Foundation Change the Room Heights in the Structure dbx Rebuild the Roof. Rebuild the Foundation Did all the Rooms change or did things work the way you wanted them to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Larry, Try this: Delete all Roof Planes and the Foundation Change the Room Heights in the Structure dbx Rebuild the Roof. Rebuild the Foundation Did all the Rooms change or did things work the way you wanted them to? That's probably the ultimate solution but I'm way too far along and need to get the ConDocs out. Will try that when I get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Larry, curious if your loop happens if " same height walls" isn't checked in the Build Roof DBX (I assume auto rebuild is on?) I too have run into weird issues like this, so I always do plenty of save as plans as I go , and step back if needed, but am definitely wondering what's going on since ,what if for example you want to change the kitchen/family room in a 1storey to be 10' and leave the rest 8',when Client changes their mind? Not going to work well ,if I am reading Joe right. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Emery Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Greg is correct in his analysis of the problem. The reason all of the rooms change is that Chief is forced to push the entire slab room below in order to get what it needs in the problem area at the stem wall and footing part of the foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 So I change the room structure dbx of the room with the incorrect room height to match all the correct room heights and all the floors of every other room are forced down? Really? Even though the floor of the room is the same, corrected height? IOW I set the floor height to -24" and the room height to 97" in a single room and all the other floors are forced down to -31"? What? Even the floor I set to -24" is forced down to -31"? Huh? That defies logic doesn't it? I set a floor height to -24" and it's forced down to -31" because??? When I match properties everything works out just fine. I'm glad someone understands this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I am pretty sure it looks like I ignored the defaults and just set about drawing a house and was hoping for something to magically work but that's far from the truth. This model was fine for a long time as I've been working on it for quite some time. Then it wasn't fine as I must have changed something unbeknownst and that room height/floor height went south. FYI the lower room is an existing room addition, not a garage, and the work to be done, is more room addition on the upper level though that shouldn't matter much. My biggest question is contained in the last video. I'll go back and post it here. I took Perry's model, which you can download, and I took a room that had the wrong heights, changed them to be correct in the room structure dbx and every other room changed heights. This has to be what I did somewhere along in the model and that's the part I don't get. I would get that -31 floor and 104 ceiling height over and over and even changing the single room height would get me that same -31/104. Must have changed the defaults? Here's the model as posted by Perry https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/6065-more-structure-dbx-challenges/?p=53240 Here's the part I find difficult to understand and the endless loop I was stuck in. Larry, I didn't spend a lot of time checking everything, but I can see in your video that it still doesn't have the correct "stem wall top settings" @ -31, that should be a -24 like the slab, those should be the same, then you would have to change some of the footings/ stem walls individually. Look at the diagram Chief gives you, doesn't look correct does it. In a mono slab setting "c" and "d" should be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 As I said before, deleter the Foundation, make room adjustments and rebuild the Foundation. - or - Turn on "Auto Rebuild Foundation" If that's not ON you will not get the Foundation to adjust to the new Floor Values and consequently the problems you are having. If you want Chief to make all these adjustments automatically then you have to have "REBUILD ON". Same for Roofs. The rule is that what's above and below control unless you tell Chief to "Auto Rebuild" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWaldron Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Not being an expert on Chief but working with many other 3D programs...... looks like to me to make this an easy fix for coding it would be advantage to be able to lock the starting base height of walls (relative Z height of the lowest starting point of a wall) and lock the room height of wall (Z height of top of studs plates etc.) or allow both to recaluclate given one is fixed or neither defaulting to the default information. Another fix would be to allow a tree of the DBX items with relative information to x,y,z..... (probably never going to happen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaehmer Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I'm in also I would like to join also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now