X13 vs X12 - 3D

[basilbabaa]

SITUATION:  X13 3D renders, when compared to X12, appear blurred, washed out, less vibrant in quality and the vector renders have excessive line weights in X13

 

Rather than hijack a previous topic thread, I am starting this topic as a result of a side conversation that emerged here-in:  

 

It appears that there are others experiencing this same issue, and so I thought I would begin this here in it's own topic thread.  

Here is a Dropbox link to image and video files (generated on both a i9 and M1 Pro Max chips) depicting the issue: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9zt4tagbuhsfkbi/AABsTnIW6DjT5uExeP6e5mcAa?dl=0

 

As a note, I have already opened a support case with Chief Technical Support and they have graciously offered to look into it:  

 

Quote

 

- Support Answer -

Nathan B. 
Friday, Nov 05, 2021 - 02:54 PM PDT 
I've gone ahead and reported your experiences with X13's rendering to our development team, and they're going to look into the differences and see what can be done about them. if I need anything else from you I'll reply to this case.

 

 

If anyone else is noticing lesser quality output with 3D rendering in X13 as compared to X12, perhaps we can share our experience and thoughts here as well as with support towards a workable solution.

[basilbabaa]

Which attached rendering option is visually preferable to you? 1 or 2?

 

 

[DavidJPotter]

Both are good but can be made to look more realistic by YOU making adjustments to light and materials. Computers and software do not make Art, it is end users who do this.

 

DJP

[Kbird1]

Not just a MAC issue , I also find the Standard Rendering in X12 is better than X13 and have several Clients who have stayed with X12 for this reason

as PBR-RT is still too much work to make look good in a lot of cases.

 

M.

[StephenGreene]

my renders in X12 are FAR better than X13. and this is using the same camera with the same settings in the same plan. and they still look awful in X13. i've submitted this to support and they have no idea. so...i'm still using X12.

[Gawdzira]

This render took me 90 seconds in x13. If I was to Raytrace this in X12 I may not be able to have this conversation today.  

[basilbabaa]

I'm not Raytracing; PBR in X12 works fine for me.  X13 however, for me, produces dull, grainy, output with poor definition.  X13 output reminds me of what I see when I remove my glasses, blurred stuff... 

 

The first image was a physically based render from X12 the second was physically based render from X13.  Exact camera settings no changes just open file and open camera view.  

While both renders took only seconds on my iMac.  My point is, I prefer the 1st render to the 2nd.  The 2nd appears blurry and washed out to me.  I want to use X13 but cannot because the rendering output looks terrible to me in comparison.  As far as David's suggestion earlier I have spent hours playing with lighting and textures in X13 and I can't get X13 output to come near the output I'm able to achieve just by pointing a camera and clicking in X12.  As for Gawdzira's X13 render, while it looks realistic enough, it still makes me want to reach for my glasses so I can see see more definition...  Oh wait....  I'm wearing my glasses.  LOL. 

 

I too have opened a ticket with support, but I am simply attempting to ascertain here what others think as far as which image they feel is the better representation.  Maybe I will need to accept that the general preference is the one I consider to be the blurred, grainy, washed out output, and change my thinking on it?

 

[Gawdzira]

Try these settings for interior as a baseline for tweaking your shots.

[Kbird1]

6 hours ago, basilbabaa said:

The first image was a physically based render from X12 the second was physically based render from X13.  Exact camera settings no changes just open file and open camera view.  

 

Do you have a Roof or 2nd story on the Model ?  and a Foundation ( I use a 5 click auto mono slab if Project doesn't require a Full model ) , I ask because of the "Glow"  ( light leak) above the Rangehood area in particular .

 

And like you I think the X12 image is nicer , but needs more light.

 

M.

[designergy]

X13 just looks flat.  Not sure how else to describe it.  I am too far into using X13 to switch back but I have stopped using the renderings because of it.  Its feels like stepping back to Windows Vista...there, I said it lol.

[basilbabaa]

8 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Do you have a Roof or 2nd story on the Model ?  and a Foundation ( I use a 5 click auto mono slab if Project doesn't require a Full model ) , I ask because of the "Glow"  ( light leak) above the Rangehood area in particular .

 

And like you I think the X12 image is nicer , but needs more light.

 

M.

 

I worked for about 30 min to get rid of the "glow" leak.  There are lights in those cabinets and they are tight against the ceiling, but the leak won't go away.  And yes it is too dark but that was because I was turning down lights to try and get rid of the glow...      At some point I'll spend more time on working with exposure and other stuff.

 

[Renerabbitt]

On 11/21/2021 at 5:35 PM, basilbabaa said:

I'm not Raytracing; PBR in X12 works fine for me.  X13 however, for me, produces dull, grainy, output with poor definition.  X13 output reminds me of what I see when I remove my glasses, blurred stuff... 

 

The first image was a physically based render from X12 the second was physically based render from X13.  Exact camera settings no changes just open file and open camera view.  

While both renders took only seconds on my iMac.  My point is, I prefer the 1st render to the 2nd.  The 2nd appears blurry and washed out to me.  I want to use X13 but cannot because the rendering output looks terrible to me in comparison.  As far as David's suggestion earlier I have spent hours playing with lighting and textures in X13 and I can't get X13 output to come near the output I'm able to achieve just by pointing a camera and clicking in X12.  As for Gawdzira's X13 render, while it looks realistic enough, it still makes me want to reach for my glasses so I can see see more definition...  Oh wait....  I'm wearing my glasses.  LOL. 

 

I too have opened a ticket with support, but I am simply attempting to ascertain here what others think as far as which image they feel is the better representation.  Maybe I will need to accept that the general preference is the one I consider to be the blurred, grainy, washed out output, and change my thinking on it?

 

Just wanted to point out that the two renderings are not comparable as you are not utilizing light sets. One image does not have the pendants turned on.

[basilbabaa]

19 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

Just wanted to point out that the two renderings are not comparable as you are not utilizing light sets. One image does not have the pendants turned on.

 

Actually they are turned on.  In X13 though for some reason they appear off.

Here are 2 more screenshots taken from the same file, same saved camera, no settings changed when opening the camera between the two app versions.

I was also able to get rid of the light bleed in the ceiling from before, but not sure what I did.

 

In the X12 shot the pendants are on and appear on.  Clarity and definition appears sharp.  Stainless steel shines more, countertop reflections are showing.

In the X13 shot the pendants are on but appear off.  Clarity and definition appears dull and blurred. Stainless steel finishes are dull, countertop washed out with no reflections.

Considering I changed none of the settings between the two app versions, while I do like the way X13 rendered the metal on the pendants better than in X12, I prefer everything else in the X12 render.  

 

But again that is my preference and I am wondering what peoples preferences are when viewing the two renders.

 

 

[Renerabbitt]

55 minutes ago, basilbabaa said:

In X13 though for some reason they appear off

Can you please take a screenshot of the dbx at 3d/Lighting/Adjust Lights/ so we can see if the problem is your light sets.

[basilbabaa]

Attached is the current configuration of the active light set for the Kitchen on Camera 3 which was saved and used to take those screen shots.

 

To get rid of the glow in the original shots I posted at the beginning of this post, I lowered the rope lights in the cabinets to .25 lumens which appear as 0.

I also am burning lights in the adjacent living room and hallway.

 

Let me know if you see anything I've done incorrectly or if you have suggestions.  Thanks.

[Renerabbitt]

1 hour ago, basilbabaa said:

Attached is the current configuration of the active light set for the Kitchen on Camera 3 which was saved and used to take those screen shots.

 

If you post your .plan file I can take a look, helpful if you use the backup option with referenced material files

[Rich_Winsor]

7 hours ago, basilbabaa said:

But again that is my preference and I am wondering what peoples preferences are when viewing the two renders.

 

 

I can confirm that you are not losing your mind. 

The X12 render is far superior to the X13 one.

 

[basilbabaa]

On 11/23/2021 at 8:59 PM, Renerabbitt said:

If you post your .plan file I can take a look, helpful if you use the backup option with referenced material files

 

All backup material and comparative image files relevant to this post are located here and updated periodically: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9zt4tagbuhsfkbi/AABsTnIW6DjT5uExeP6e5mcAa?dl=0.

 

You are welcome to view the various image comparisons made by myself as well as others in this forum.

You are also welcome to download the plan and work with the settings.  

 

Since I as well as others have been unable to do so thus far, I look forward to seeing if and how you are able to generate a 3D image in either vector, standard or physical render formats out of X13 that have the same level of definition and clarity as I am able to produce in X12.

 

Thanks for taking the time to try.

[robdyck]

Here's some images I produced. I made a copy of the plan file, 1 for X12 and 1 for X13. In X13, the only change I made to the saved cameras was to turn off refraction and cap live samples. FWIW, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same results with PBR in X13 as the rendering engine is different and it is designed to work with refraction. IOW, it ain't the same, so how can it be the same?

 

Here's my results.

X12  

X13  

 

X12  

X13  

 

[Kbird1]

On 11/26/2021 at 7:48 AM, robdyck said:

FWIW, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same results with PBR in X13 as the rendering engine is different and it is designed to work with refraction. IOW, it ain't the same, so how can it be the same?

 

I am not sure either a true direct comparison is possible with PBR due to the new engine, so we'll need to relearn a few PBR  "tricks" I think .....

 

I do know the STANDARD Renders are not the same in both versions, X12 is much cleaner and crisper..... I noted this in Beta and thought it would be fixed by time the Public Release (PR) was made.....

 

Here is another report of the issues from just this morning 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/32674-x12-v-x13-on-mac-pc/

 

M.

[basilbabaa]

A client of mine purchased a new Apple MacBook Pro with an M1 chip and asked me to set it up for him.
So while I had it, I thought I would run some tests to compare 3D performance on it between X12 and X13.

 

While the motion performance is better in X13, the clarity is considerably blurred and dull looking.  It's almost like X13 puts a matte finish to it making reflections and reflective surfaces appear washed out. Interestingly the camera image rendered nearly twice as fast in X12 as compared to X13.  But once rendered in X13 I could move around in it with more fluidity than in X12.

 

Perhaps I am in the minority with my preferences, but I prefer the faster rendering and clarity in X12 to the fluid motion of X13, and so am sticking with X12 for now.  

 

I have recorded the experience here, and welcome comments: 

 

 

 

[glennw]

Just a tip to keep track of the screen redraw time to save counting the seconds.

Preferences>Appearance>Status Bar>Show Screen Redraw Time.

[Chrisb222]

17 hours ago, basilbabaa said:

A client of mine purchased a new Apple MacBook Pro with an M1 chip and asked me to set it up for him.
So while I had it, I thought I would run some tests to compare 3D performance on it between X12 and X13.

 

While the motion performance is better in X13, the clarity is considerably blurred and dull looking.  It's almost like X13 puts a matte finish to it making reflections and reflective surfaces appear washed out. Interestingly the camera image rendered nearly twice as fast in X12 as compared to X13.  But once rendered in X13 I could move around in it with more fluidity than in X12.

 

Perhaps I am in the minority with my preferences, but I prefer the faster rendering and clarity in X12 to the fluid motion of X13, and so am sticking with X12 for now.  

 

I have recorded the experience here, and welcome comments: 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing that information Basil.

 

Could I bother you to do a similar comparison using Standard and Vector View please?

 

 

[basilbabaa]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:07 PM, Chrisb222 said:

 

Thank you for sharing that information Basil.

 

Could I bother you to do a similar comparison using Standard and Vector View please?

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

I have already returned the M1 MacBook to my client.  I can however do similar comparisons of Standard and Vector from my iMac if you would like?

[basilbabaa]

I finally had some time to get back to this issue.  I just downloaded the X14 Beta.  All my rendering issues between X12 and X13 have been resolved!

 

Opening my X12 plan in X14 (as is AND with no material changeouts or modifications) looks fantastic!  

Unlike when opening it in X13, my plan appears just as clean and crisp in X14 as it did in X12; it actually looks better because the material rendering is far better in X14 than in X12.

 

Crisp clean lines and resolution CLARITY is back!  CA somehow managed to take the best of X12 and X13 rendering and combine those features into X14.  It's darn near perfect. I am so excited I cannot wait to get my new Mac Studio now.  I only wish that with the current supply chain bottlenecks, that I didn't have to wait until the end of July for it to ship.

 

Thank You CA for listening and acting.  I can tell that I am so going to enjoy working in X14!