Framing tall wall with large openings. How do you do the steel?

[GeneDavis]

This feature wall which looks out at a million dollar mountain view, is 24' wide x 25' tall at its peak.

 

If you have done one this size with ordinary 2x framing, kudos to you and the framer.  I think steel is needed.

 

How do you do the steel elements in such a wall with Chief?  And isn't the Chief Architect sample plan "Bachelor" done with steel in a couple glass walls like this, but I downloaded the plan and cannot see the steel.

[javatom]

I have done them out of wood as well.  The engineer usually requires 6x6 columns of Glulam material or PSL.  It is then balloon framed with a lot of hold down steel straps and bolts.  The tricky part is supporting the header between the upper and lower windows.  I usually use a hidden hanger.  The HUC series works well.

[Chief16Designer]

As long as you have enough  shear wall 6"or 8" wall  will do it, for the picture you may need steel it has no shear wall

I also had seen other engineers using 2 Hardy steel walls on top of each other 12' high steel on the bottom and 8'high steel on top 

[HumbleChief]

18 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

I think steel is needed.

I think I would ask my structural engineer...

[rgardner]

19 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

How do you do the steel elements in such a wall with Chief?

Try framing the wall and opening up an individual framing member and look at the options it can be?  For example a post can be lumber, Englsh lumber, steel square or round, concrete, etc.

[HumbleChief]

Genuinely curious, do you all as designers/architects make these decisions without consulting a structural engineer? Sometimes I think steel and my guy suggests PSL/GLULAM. Sometimes I think PSL/GLULAM and my guy suggests steel. Do you all make these calls without that advice from a structural engineer? Or do you make the call THEN ask a structural guy?

[ACADuser]

I usually draw in wood & then submit to Engineer.

In Naples the wind forces may require steel but you can do a lot with parallel lambs  & structural sheeting on both sides of the wall.

 

[HumbleChief]

23 minutes ago, ACADuser said:

In Naples the wind forces may require steel but you can do a lot with parallel lambs...

Have you tried perpendicular structural sheep? Older and stronger in my opinion...

[ACADuser]

OK I guess I asked for that. 

 

PARALLAM PSL BEAM

[Joe_Carrick]

1 hour ago, HumbleChief said:

do you all as designers/architects make these decisions without consulting a structural engineer?

Larry, 

 

As an Architect, I was also trained in structural engineering.  I can usually determine just by observation whether I need to use any special materials or if wood framing will work.  If something extra is needed I will normally do the calculations myself.  OTOH, if a full steel moment resisting frame is needed I'll have a registered Structural Engineer do the design.  Many steel fabricators have engineers on staff that can provide not only the design calculations but also the detailing.

[HumbleChief]

13 minutes ago, ACADuser said:

OK I guess I asked for that. 

 

PARALLAM PSL BEAM

All in fun Alan....

[rgardner]

2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

Genuinely curious, do you all as designers/architects make these decisions without consulting a structural engineer?

Anything like this goes on the plan as see engineers design (I usually have an idea of what it is going to be based on the area and past experience but it is always done by an engineer.)  I do however do the drafting for several of the engineers that my clients use so often times need to detail this out in chief according to the engineer's specifications.

[scottharris]

Attached is a wall that is a moment frame from the Lake Point sample plan.  It uses I-beams and has been engineered.  It’s on pg. 12 of the layout if you want a closer look.  There’s also a detailed video in the playlist for the framing.

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott,

 

The Callout bubble at the bottom of that detail would not normally be shown with the arrows.  I should be just a circle with the S4 text.  

[Ed_Orum]

It can be difficult to get the wobble out of a wall like this one.  I usually incorporate a "plant shelf" on the interior which runs at the header level between the stacked windows.  Where there are studs, the "shelf" frame runs from the outer edge of the studs and projects approximately 18" into the room.  where the shelf runs across headers, it is screwed to the headers with Timberlock screws.  The outer edge of the shelf is a 2x rim board.  Then the top and bottom of the shelf get covered with 3/4" CDX, so essentially a beam or diaphragm is now giving lateral support to the wall.  I don't know about other areas, but if we go over 11'6" high most local building departments require an "engineered design", but at the minimum the studs have to be #1 Grade, @ 12" O.C.  Since all the plans I do are sealed by a PE, he specs out whatever is needed for an engineered design.  The shelf also makes a great place for recessed lights in the wall, especially when it is over those big open patio doors.  
But in any situation like this, I would get an Engineer involved.

 

Lane
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"

[HumbleChief]

10 hours ago, scottharris said:

Attached is a wall that is a moment frame from the Lake Point sample plan.  It uses I-beams and has been engineered.  It’s on pg. 12 of the layout if you want a closer look.  There’s also a detailed video in the playlist for the framing.

I have another question. Is this a Chief detail? If so where did the plan callout arrows come from? Been asking for that ability for years. Are they done in Chief? If so are they created manually? Curious thanks.

 

EDIT: Chuckling to myself thinking that Scott's thinking, "Now I remember why I don't post that much stuff in the forum." On the other hand I hope you know how much we appreciate your participation.

[javatom]

This home is in an area of wind speed 90 and seismic C.  That detail might not work in all areas.  I usually spec something like what Scott shows and let the engineer dial in the specifications.  I live in an area where the builders do not like to use steel.  The specifics of your area can greatly influence a lot of the specifications.

[Chief16Designer]

This may be an option 

[scottharris]

On 5/11/2021 at 8:22 AM, HumbleChief said:

I have another question. Is this a Chief detail? If so where did the plan callout arrows come from? Been asking for that ability for years. Are they done in Chief? If so are they created manually? Curious thanks.

 

EDIT: Chuckling to myself thinking that Scott's thinking, "Now I remember why I don't post that much stuff in the forum." On the other hand I hope you know how much we appreciate your participation.

 

Larry, the detail is done in Chief.  The callouts/arrows were added in the section view using the callout tool.  You can see this in the video at around the 18:30 mark.  Glad you commented!

[HumbleChief]

And this callout pictured below with the arrow? Is that done manually or has Chief had a tool I've been requesting for years and I simply don't know where it is?

 

Thanks

[SHCanada2]

On 5/9/2021 at 1:25 PM, GeneDavis said:

 

If you have done one this size with ordinary 2x framing, kudos to you and the framer.  I think steel is needed.

 

On 5/11/2021 at 5:29 AM, Ed_Orum said:

It can be difficult to get the wobble out of a wall like this one

 

My own house gable is about 24' H x 42W but with a break for a loft at 12', so call it 24'x30W with 8 windows (2 rakes) and patio doors

After I drew it up  I sent it to my engineer.

He specified

2x6 wall framing with 4' blocking.  6ply 2x6 main column holding up the ridge beam(which differs from yours)

 

I framed it, and it was wobbly. I called the engineer and said I thought it might fall over. He came within a few hours and looked at it an basically said, the calcs are good. If I wanted to add reinforcement I could add a column LVL on the inside

 

My opinion was it was wobbly because there is essentially no sheathing with all the windows, and because the 2x6column was built up. He asked me if I glued it and I said no. So the jury is still out on if it was the glue

 

Instead I added 2x6 below every header (I was originally trying to keep the distance between windows to a minimum and did not put in any framing below or above the header (other than 1 2x6), which differs from the drawing below), and put Simpson L50 L brackets on every window corner and two L70 L on every header(vertically to attach to columns as you have 5.5 less 3= 2.5 in to put in a bracket), and bolted the 2x6 column together. It was much better, but still a little wobbly. Once the windows went in, eveything was pretty much good (no cracks on the windows yet (6 years later).

 

below is the framing, except I never built the framing  above/below the headers as shown (except the top), only a 2x6 on flat above and below.

 

oh and in the end it wasnt a christmas tree for the middle column(as shown below). I think it was 6 for the column plus 1 for the jack stud on either side, so 8 total

 

 

 

[Chrisb222]

8 minutes ago, jasonn1234 said:

 

 

My own house gable is about 24' H x 42W but with a break for a loft at 12', so call it 24'x30W with 8 windows (2 rakes) and patio doors

After I drew it up  I sent it to my engineer.

He specified

2x6 wall framing with 4' blocking.  6ply 2x6 main column holding up the ridge beam(which differs from yours)

 

I framed it, and it was wobbly. I called the engineer and said I thought it might fall over. He came within a few hours and looked at it an basically said, the calcs are good. If I wanted to add reinforcement I could add a column LVL on the inside

 

My opinion was it was wobbly because there is essentially no sheathing with all the windows, and because the 2x6column was built up. He asked me if I glued it and I said no. So the jury is still out on if it was the glue

 

Instead I added 2x6 below every header (I was originally trying to keep the distance between windows to a minimum and did not put in any framing below or above the header (other than 1 2x6), which differs from the drawing below), and put Simpson L50 L brackets on every window corner and two L70 L on every header(vertically to attach to columns as you have 5.5 less 3= 2.5 in to put in a bracket), and bolted the 2x6 column together. It was much better, but still a little wobbly. Once the windows went in, eveything was pretty much good (no cracks on the windows yet (6 years later).

 

below is the framing, except I never built the framing  above/below the headers as shown (except the top), only a 2x6 on flat above and below

 

 

 

 

I did a wall similar to that a few years ago, 8 windows stacked 4/4

 

I used double 1.75x5.5 LVL king studs in the center and outsides of inner bank of windows, 6 total, and double 2x6 SPF kings both sides of outer bank of windows, all ran from floor to the top chord of 2' parallel truss so the studs reached the roof sheathing (studs notched to clear the gable truss), rat runs on the truss bottom chords with diagonal bracing to tie the bottom chord into the sheathing

 

It was strong as [bleep] .... for a flimsy wall  

 

 

[ACADuser]

1 hour ago, HumbleChief said:

And this callout pictured below with the arrow? Is that done manually or has Chief had a tool I've been requesting for years and I simply don't where it is?

 

Thanks

[HumbleChief]

Well played sir...I guess it was there all along 

[SHCanada2]

3 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

And this callout pictured below with the arrow? Is that done manually or has Chief had a tool I've been requesting for years and I simply don't know where it is?

 

Thanks

 

I do manually but I am also ignorant to perhaps a better way