KevinWaldron

Power Users Preventing Needed Changes in Chief

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Lew - I would not rely to much on the OP, seems more like there's an axe to grind from reading the post.

 

Personally, I really dislike the term "work around", feel it is used too liberally to describe any technique that is not 100 % automated. If this was the true meaning of "work around" then I guess Excel and Photoshop are a disaster.

 

Graham

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Glenn:

 

no, you figured to play a gottcha game

 

and I refuse to play it

 

you've pulled this "show me one" tactic before

trying to shut down a "diaglog"

 

I refused to play then also :)

 

I'll just re-state that if it wasn't happening

then why did the OP start this thread ???

 

Lew

Lew, It's far from a gotcha game. It's simply asking you to show that your statements are true, which you can't because the examples you site simply don't exist. You may think they do, or you may think the tenor of some replies justifies your position but it's simply not the way this forum or its members operate. Your opinion is valuable but not when it's based on an interpretation that just doesn't match the reality of this forum. I suggest you give your responses a little more thought before hitting the send button.

 

The OP has a point, but that's all. It's not a given that what they are suggesting is true but I am actually curious about the effect power users have on Chief's decision making, that's all, just curious. No need to accuse any users on this forum of "browbeating" or "insisting" that no changes be made. No need, and I think you should refrain.

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Graham,

 

Don't have an axe to grind...... just frustrated when we have to go backwards in skill sets......... example would be the SpaceMouse..... been using it for more than 5 years and it works great in all the other Cad/Cam programs we use....... go to use it in Chief and it is really sad the way they have implemented the program.....(for those that have a SM use Sketchup for and example and you will see just some of what is missing). Another example is the 3D solid tools that we have available.....4-6 tools in Chief...... after using programs with 25+ tools.........for accomplishing relatively simple 3D drawing task.

 

Enclosing some of what we do in a couple of our other business's for an example of why we might be frustrated.......... we wouldn't expect Chief to necessarily have the tool sets that the other programs offer but surely they can do much better!

 

kevin

 

 

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Larry:

 

I have no intention of refraining

 

there are many of these threads over the last decade

many, where my last comment was "thankfully, it is not your opinion that matters but CA's"

 

I will not do a search - they are there

I know they are because often I was on the sharp end of the pointy sticks

 

but I will be sure to announce in neon lights whenever this "Lord of Flies" attitude rears again

 

Lew

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:rolleyes:

 

This is a topic that will FOREVER go around and around.

 

One guy wants this, others want this, this isn't good enough, that's too good (oh wait).

 

I feel bad for Chief...like dealing with 10,000 homeowners at 1 time.

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Larry:

 

I'm having a hard time reconciling your post #52 with your earlier posts

#10,11,12 and 16

 

Lew

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Glenn:

 

besides Larry's earlier posts listed above - please also re-read post #2 and #21

 

Lew

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Lew, 

 

I'll let you have the last word and continue this argument with your self but there's nothing to reconcile. My post #52 simply calls you out on your post #42 that was completely uncalled for and used derogatory terms that are simply not true.

 

It seems like you think you've been victimized, in your own mind, by the 'browbeaters' or some other unknown and unseen foe who places you at the end of their pointy stick. You don't have to feel that way but you choose to and your next comment will reflect that same attitude and I for one am tired of it. Why do you think there are 'browbeaters' on the forum? Where does that even come from? I get it and I think I understand but you can have this argument because I don't think you will change your attitude, as your next post will surely prove.

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Glenn:

 

besides Larry's earlier posts listed above - please also re-read post #2 and #21

 

Lew

 

Lew,

 

Those posts have absolutely nothing to do with your claim and the reason for my original post to you:

the problem is when some "insist" that because there is a workaround available then the suggestion or "fix" is not needed

 

I am still waiting to see a post where a user has said this - or even implied it.

If I am missing something, please enlighten me.

you've pulled this "show me one" tactic before trying to shut down a "diaglog"

 

On the contrary, rather than trying to shut down the dialog, I am trying to continue the dialog and get some clarity from statements that, to me, seem unfounded.

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But Lew, don't leave me hanging

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Graham,

 

Don't have an axe to grind...... just frustrated when we have to go backwards in skill sets......... example would be the SpaceMouse..... been using it for more than 5 years and it works great in all the other Cad/Cam programs we use....... go to use it in Chief and it is really sad the way they have implemented the program.....(for those that have a SM use Sketchup for and example and you will see just some of what is missing). Another example is the 3D solid tools that we have available.....4-6 tools in Chief...... after using programs with 25+ tools.........for accomplishing relatively simple 3D drawing task.

 

Enclosing some of what we do in a couple of our other business's for an example of why we might be frustrated.......... we wouldn't expect Chief to necessarily have the tool sets that the other programs offer but surely they can do much better!

 

kevin

 

Kevin - I guess it all comes down to ones expectations. Agree that it would be nice to have more modeling tools but Chief is not a 3D modeling program, it is and Architectural package that permits one to render 3D views. Models are provided by Chief and there are other sources for additional models. If these are not suitable then there are programs available that are specifically designed for this purpose. Based on your viewpoint maybe you should request that the 3D modeling programs add more features that are only available in Chief.

 

I for one would prefer to have several highly functional programs than a jack of all trades one that never really does anything right.

 

Graham

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I go back forth with the need for 3D modeling tools. On a very few occasions I want to model something and Chief's tools just barely cut it, if they can get it done at all and it's very frustrating. Most of the time I simply don't need them, which doesn't negate your request Kevin, nor the requests of others but I think Graham makes a good point.

 

I think it also depends a little bit on what our background in CAD is. There is a Chief user who is very vocal about such 3D tools because the software he uses is based on 3D vector drawing and that's his go to method. Trying to get Chief to work in a way it doesn't can be frustrating. I use Chief with the methods it offers and find very little need for 3D drawing but like I said on those few occasions I need it I would like some more competent tools.

 

Is 3D modeling tools the next new feature set for Chief? Is it on the top of their priority list? Impossible to say and part of me wants that new feature and another part of me wants them focus on improving existing Chief tools instead of adding new ones.

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Chief imports Sketchup models very well. Sketchup is the best (free) 3D modeling tool money can buy. I suspect that if Chief expanded the modeling tool set it would be about the same learning curve as Sketchup. With that in mind, I am able to get some pretty complex shapes worked out quickly with the (very simple) solid modeling tools that exist in CA now. Boolean and subtraction. If I need a complex shape that someone has not already posted on the 3D warehouse I can usually hack something from an existing model in Sketchup, and my knowledge of how to use Sketchup falls somewhere between sad and laughable.

 

Did I just stop progress (assuming I may be considered a "power user" which may also be laughable?). I don't think so. I think what I did was help to focus resources on the tools that are most useful in producing (building) design work and construction documents.

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We all use CA differently so therefore CA will NEVER be perfect for everyone. I have been on board since version 2 and I know it works best for me and what I do. I'm a design/build contractor for Homes & light commercial and CA is my best choice. If it wasn't I would be buying what is and as long as I've been using CA we have ALWAYS used 3rd party programs for one reason or another. Its a holiday weekend, EVERYONE ENJOY!  

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Chief imports Sketchup models very well. Sketchup is the best (free) 3D modeling tool money can buy. I suspect that if Chief expanded the modeling tool set it would be about the same learning curve as Sketchup. With that in mind, I am able to get some pretty complex shapes worked out quickly with the (very simple) solid modeling tools that exist in CA now. Boolean and subtraction. If I need a complex shape that someone has not already posted on the 3D warehouse I can usually hack something from an existing model in Sketchup, and my knowledge of how to use Sketchup falls somewhere between sad and laughable.

 

Did I just stop progress (assuming I may be considered a "power user" which may also be laughable?). I don't think so. I think what I did was help to focus resources on the tools that are most useful in producing (building) design work and construction documents.

I think that's a great point Alan that directly addresses the OP's concerns. I just went to the 3D warehouse and got some killer furniture that I imported into SU then into Chief. If I did furniture design for a living I sure as heck wouldn't even consider Chief as the other tools out there are designed for and serve the purpose so much better..

 

There's an old saying, "The Master of life never recognizes he is the Master" Maybe there's a corollary, "The Power User never recognizes he is a Power User?" 

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We all use CA differently so therefore CA will NEVER be perfect for everyone. I have been on board since version 2 and I know it works best for me and what I do. I'm a design/build contractor for Homes & light commercial and CA is my best choice. If it wasn't I would be buying what is and as long as I've been using CA we have ALWAYS used 3rd party programs for one reason or another. Its a holiday weekend, EVERYONE ENJOY!  

I'm curious Shane, Do you find a need for better 3D tools?

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CA does all I need and I consider myself very good with CA for my line of work. I know the 3d world has REALLY become an important part of design work and therefore CA needs to keep up. In ver2 we could only draw walls, no roofs and look at it now.

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Agree that if one needs to do very complex 3D modeling then a program specifically design for this would be required. Here is an example of a recent project where I needed to replicate some exposed steel work in a UK Loft. This was done using only Chief Primitive tools, never really had to use these for much but it really did not take long to get a handle on how to work with them. If anything I found it to be more a lack of intuitive functionality and coming to grips with the fact that editing Polylines, other than setting a depth, are dependent upon the plane in which they where originally drawn in. From my limited exposure to this it would have been great if a Polyline object could be just rotated around it's axis to change the editable face orientation. I guess this is accomplished by converting to a solid, something I will have to explore.

 

The first pic shows the site pic I was provided and the 2nd one is the Chief created model.

 

Graham

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That looks really good Graham and understand the challenges of creating that in Chief and yeah IMO a couple of changes in the way 3D objects are modified would go miles in making changes easier.

 

I wonder if the issue remains where users are used to the tools in 'other software' and Chief, therefore, should be more like tools in that other software?

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Here is some recent work. The majority done in CA. The Yokes were gleaned from 3d warehouse.

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That looks really good Graham and understand the challenges of creating that in Chief and yeah IMO a couple of changes in the way 3D objects are modified would go miles in making changes easier.

 

I wonder if the issue remains where users are used to the tools in 'other software' and Chief, therefore, should be more like tools in that other software?

 

Thanks Larry. I think you make a good point that if a user is accustom to another software package then it can be a real struggle when switching. I recall this back when spreadsheets were evolving rapidly, VisiCalc, 123 and then Excel. Regardless of the benefits it was a major challenge to get existing users to take the time to learn a different approach. There however is an important message in all of this which is no matter how powerful a piece of software is it's acceptance is highly dependent upon presenting this power in as intuitive and easy to understand way as possible. Most users do not have the patience, time or background to play a game of "Find Waldo" when they want to get something done.

 

Graham

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Most users do not have the patience, time or background to play a game of "Find Waldo" when they want to get something done.

which is why I come here ;)

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Here is some recent work. The majority done in CA. The Yokes were gleaned from 3d warehouse.

That's some power user creed right there - Nice!

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which is why I come here ;)

 

Got that right!!! It seems that the only problem with this, at least from some, is that they only get a "Work Around". Oh No! I'm in trouble now :(

 

Graham

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