Joe_Carrick

2D CAD - How much do you use?

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I first started using CAD for Architecture in 1978.  At that time 2D was all there was so I am very familiar with all the tools and how to make the most of them.

 

With Chief, I use almost no 2D CAD other than dimensions, text annotation, markers and callouts.  The exception is some CAD Details but I get the majority of that done by use of Sections and CAD  Detail from View.

 

Other than my Layout Borders, Property Lines, Setback Lines, & CAD Masks (Fill and Placement Tools) I rarely use 2D in my work.  I don't even use Polyline Solids except to create some Symbols.  I just find that using the 3D Tools in Chief promotes better spacial thinking.  Have you also embraced this or do you still tend to work in 2D?

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I use 3D for everything I possibly can. I use polysolids on most every plan. And you are right, Joe, the 3D helps with the spacial thinking. However, CA still needs work in cross sections. I have to clean up almost every section I take. Some of it is because I am picky about my sections; there is a way I want them to look and I haven't found an out-of-the-box solution yet. I use several sections in my plans to convey the roof, foundation and framing, especially where there are special conditions or out-of-the-ordinary design conditions. I always have to remove or modify some stray/extra lines in the sections. I will sometimes use cross sections to CAD detail, but not much - too many lines to clean up and it is no longer "live" anyway. I use as many generic details as possible; the others I will draw from scratch with 2D.

 

Mike

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Joe, I would love to see screenshots or something of your process. Perhaps you have a good system I dont know about.

 

Personally - I really have no idea how people design thru 3D modeling in CA and end up with well thought out projects, in a reasonable amount of time.  I feel I could model a home with no concept work, but it wouldn't come out like a project where I took the added step of 2D drawings.  I'd even suggest the 2D concept workflow can be faster than trying to design-3d-model.

 

(edit)

I changed my example to a residential project, since that is mostly what you guys are taking about here.  So below is an example where I could produce this for a client in 1-3 hrs to make sure (a) the floor plan would generally meet the clients need, and ( B) elevation concept was in line with the motif/style the client wanted, and © rough shot estimates could be made for the estimated budget.

 

What can you do in 1-3 hrs in CA to give such a rough overview of a project in concept stage?

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I use 2d often in details because of horizontal framing in pole structures, SIPs or panelized construction. Yes I know horizontal framing can be done with 3d if you are retired and are bored. All the tools Joe listed are sufficient.

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I use CAD for details only and the occasional line in plan or section if it is truly easier to white out and draw over instead of modelling correctly.

 

The design process is back and forth from trace to Chief and back again.

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Joe - I know you mean the 2D CAD tools but based Johnny's post I would say I use chief's 2D/3D a lot as does everyone.

THe plan design and layout are all done with the 2D walls, cabinets, doors and windows etc. THe beauty of the program is the 3D attached to the 2D. At some point I begin referencing the 3D to get a better "feel" for how things look in "that world."

I would think everyone probably works that way. And yes mostly 2d CAD for text based items and arrows.

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I use it extensively for details and to clean up CA's horrible sections and to fix or clarify floor plans, especially the foundation plan.

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I use 2d lines rarely in plan view. In cross sections I use them quite a bit to make the CA model look like it will be built.

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 So below is an example where I could produce this for a client in 1-3 hrs to make sure (a) the floor plan would generally meet the clients need, and ( B) elevation concept was in line with the motif/style the client wanted, and © rough shot estimates could be made for the estimated budget.

 

What can you do in 1-3 hrs in CA to give such a rough overview of a project in concept stage?

 

Johnny, what program did you use to produce these drawings?

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I use CAD for details only and the occasional line in plan or section if it is truly easier to white out and draw over instead of modelling correctly.

 

The design process is back and forth from trace to Chief and back again.

Me too, and I already have my 2d details drawn ( have lots) I usually just bring a 2d detail up and modify it and save it as a new detail. very few cad lines if any, mostly for cover-up of sections ,but that is limited if the model is the best you can make it and clean.

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I use 2D CAD tools very little as well. Off the top of my head, I use them for...

 

-Temporary lines and points (just end up getting deleted)

-To build custom mouldings

-VERY rarely to clean up sections or 3D vector views sent to layout (more often than not, I'm just deleting lines and not adding them)

-Occasionally to draw in a custom tub, drain, etc. when I need to draw up a custom 2D detail but don't need or want to take the time to model everything. 

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Me too, and I already have my 2d details drawn ( have lots) I usually just bring a 2d detail up and modify it and save it as a new detail. very few cad lines if any, mostly for cover-up of sections ,but that is limited if the model is the best you can make it and clean.

What he says.

 

When I do need a new detail I model it.  

 

A couple years ago I did a mechanical drawing project in chief just to see if I could, modeling and cad avoidance was my priority.  I know there are better platforms to produce what I did, but as I said that was not my goal.  For me the moral of the story was to model more and use less cad.

 

X4 Container Drawings - Pg 13.pdf

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Johnny, what program did you use to produce these drawings?

 

Vectorworks.  I have "blocks" (really groups) of all sorts of library items.  In fact, here is an example of an elevation I did using elements of the above drawing.  I was able to do this for the client as a concept in about 20-30 min.

 

Notice the elements I reused.

 

 

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Joe, I would love to see screenshots or something of your process. Perhaps you have a good system I dont know about.

 

Personally - I really have no idea how people design thru 3D modeling in CA and end up with well thought out projects, in a reasonable amount of time.  I feel I could model a home with no concept work, but it wouldn't come out like a project where I took the added step of 2D drawings.  I'd even suggest the 2D concept workflow can be faster than trying to design-3d-model.

 

(edit)

I changed my example to a residential project, since that is mostly what you guys are taking about here.  So below is an example where I could produce this for a client in 1-3 hrs to make sure (a) the floor plan would generally meet the clients need, and ( B) elevation concept was in line with the motif/style the client wanted, and © rough shot estimates could be made for the estimated budget.

 

What can you do in 1-3 hrs in CA to give such a rough overview of a project in concept stage?

 

Johnny, I really like your presentation views/sections, and I understand the frustrations of not always getting the 3D model to do what I want it to do (at least in My timeframe). And, your sections are impressive for 1-3 hrs. of work. But when I do a project with CA, I have the 2D done for me by the software. Not always perfect but a good place to jump into and embellish as needed. Where a 3D package shines, at least for me, is understanding (and presenting to the client) what their spaces will look before the first nail is driven. Many clients, as we all know, just can't visualize the space and how it all works together. My other preference for 3D is driven by the roofs. If you have a simple hip or gable roof system there are typically no problems. But when the roofs are cut-up, with sometimes different pitches/plate heights, it is so much easier to pull an overview, spin it around, and look for the problem areas. Many can draw roofs in 2D elevations and they may work. But can you actually build it?

 

Again, your work is impressive, especially from an artistic perspective. Mike

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Johnny,

 

You could have similar CAD Blocks stored in your Library in Chief and do this kind of detailing in a CAD Detail Window.

OTOH, you can also have most of this set up in 3D Symbols, Wall Types, Windows, Doors, etc in the Library and do it in 3D.  Having saved Cameras (Elevations) in your Default Plan means that the Elevations are being created as the Plan is being developed.  If the Render Technique is set to "Technical Illustration" or "Line Drawing" you can get a lot of that "Artsy" result.

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Note that when you customize a Door, Window, Cabinet, or even Wall Types in Chief, you can save those to your Library for future use.  It's not just Symbols that can be in the Library.

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I think Johnny does some awesome presentation work.  Some of the best I have seen.  We could all learn something from Johnny,  but I want to learn from Johnny using CA as an APP.

 

Johnny,  you are so proud of how quickly you do your presentations,  but I bet I could match your speed,  and I would have a floor  plan drawn,  sections if I need them etc.

 

If you would only bite the bullet and learn CA,  you would be a great resource for the rest of us.  You would push and expand the possibilities we have with CA.  

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Johnny's 2d stuff is very artistic,  but if I was a home owner,  I would much rather see 3D. 

 

Black and white tv or color?  Mono or surround sound?  Flip phone or a smart  phone?  Fax or email?  

 

At some point,  we all had to bite the bullet and spend time to learn CA......  or whatever 3D program turns you on.   2D is so archaic,  not even worth talking about anymore.

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I agree with Scott.  The thing about working with Chief in 3D is that while it might take a bit longer (not really sure about that) to design a project - you end up with all the Floor Plans, Elevations, Sections, Interior Elevations, Foundation Plan, Site Plan, Schedules, Framing Plans, Roof Plan, etc.

 

Plus Renderings, Ray Traces, Walk Thrus, etc.

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Joe_Carrick, on 05 Aug 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:

I agree with Scott. The thing about working with Chief in 3D is that while it might take a bit longer (not really sure about that) to design a project - you end up with all the Floor Plans, Elevations, Sections, Interior Elevations, Foundation Plan, Site Plan, Schedules, Framing Plans, Roof Plan, etc.

Plus Renderings, Ray Traces, Walk Thrus, etc.

Kind of what I was referring to in post #6

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BTW, I do not consider creating Walls, placing Doors, Windows, Cabinets, Appliances, Fixtures, etc as 2D in Chief.  It might look like 2D in the Plan View - but that's just the Plan View representation of the 3D Model.  I generally have a 3D Perspective on one of my monitors and Sections and/or Elevations as well while I'm working in the Plan so I see everything happening in real time.

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Johnny's 2d stuff is very artistic,  but if I was a home owner,  I would much rather see 3D. 

 

Black and white tv or color?  Mono or surround sound?  Flip phone or a smart  phone?  Fax or email?  

 

At some point,  we all had to bite the bullet and spend time to learn CA......  or whatever 3D program turns you on.   2D is so archaic,  not even worth talking about anymore.

 

Yeah, I am trying to nail CA down - I really am.  Perhaps in the future it will be faster for presentation work - however, my 2d process is so "experimental" I feel 3D modeling I often have to invest too much time into a direction I wont go.

 

I've show this project before, but its a good example of what I mean.  Below is the floor plan of a waterfront home for a client.  The husband wanted a rustic stucco home resembling a "french country" design, and the wife wanted a "beachy" Cape Cod (Nantucket) influenced home.  I feel to model both styles in CA would have taken much longer, whereas a simple 2D elevation of the different ideas was very quick - especially since I was changing details of the frame I already had.

 

Perhaps I will find 3D work as effective - and I am working on that.

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I agree with Scott.  The thing about working with Chief in 3D is that while it might take a bit longer (not really sure about that) to design a project - you end up with all the Floor Plans, Elevations, Sections, Interior Elevations, Foundation Plan, Site Plan, Schedules, Framing Plans, Roof Plan, etc.

 

Plus Renderings, Ray Traces, Walk Thrus, etc.

 

True, there is no question you end up with more if you invest more time in 3d.   If everything goes correctly it may be a time-saver over the entire project.  However, i've also had many clients want to go completely different directions - and having only 2D investments was much easier to digest that change than 3D models etc.

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.......and having only 2D investments was much easier to digest that change than 3D models etc.

Hey,  I know you know your stuff.  Believe me,  you do some great stuff.  But a comment,    I do know in the long run CA is faster,  and I would not be surprised if CA was faster in the short run......  maybe faster than your 2d stuff.

 

I have heard comments from several users recently who  picked up   CA,  became frustrated,  put in on the shelf,  and now they are thinking about coming back to it.  I say they did not give it enough time.  Learning CA is costly,  in lost  production and in educational costs .  All of us who use it everyday can tell you stories about how much it cost us in the beginning.  

 

I remember a job I did,  structural was rather complicated,  I did the architectural in CA and I did the structural on paper.  I got lucky,  the job went pretty smoothly with minor changes.  But imagine if there were some bigger changes what a mess I would of been in?  That is when I decided to go all in.  The financial rewards were not important,  completing the entire job in CA was paramount.  I bit the bullet.

 

It is paying off now. 

 

 

 

It does help that the CA of today  is light years ahead of X10 which is the version I started with back in 2005........  I can't  wait for X-8,  maybe at the UGM they will give  us a sneak preview...... they did 6 years ago when I went,  I forgot what happened 4 years ago....

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Jonny does some very nice stuff in other more powerful programs than Chief. I'm not sure its possible in Chief in it's current state.

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