HumbleChief

Real Time Ray Tracing in X13

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33 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

My ears perked up when purlins got mentioned.

 

Does this mean we can have multiple framing layers in walls, the most obvious use being battens for rainscreen siding details?

 

 

We have always been able to do that but not being framed individually.  So you can't remove the sill and top plate automatically...

 

image.thumb.png.84a7099af5f0c591ea47c9089e47b4c4.pngimage.thumb.png.e16b06b7517e923899c1b8d776d56acb.png

 

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1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

Does this mean we can have multiple framing layers in walls, the most obvious use being battens for rainscreen siding details?

Guess some changes will be shown this Thursday.

wall framing

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35 minutes ago, rgardner said:

We have always been able to do that but not being framed individually.

 

Ryan is right, I have been using Auto - Framing for Rain Screen for 2-3 years now, since X9, I posted a library in the symbols forum for every along with an X10 update here.....

 

Rainscreen Batten Library - Symbols and Content - ChiefTalk Forum (chiefarchitect.com)

 

Hopefully they have updated that ability too - looks like we will find out thurs. as Mark mentioned.

 

M.

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5 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

I couldn't agree more. I'm fully aware from a sales/marketing perspective the competitive pressure and desire to introduce New and Exciting Features to gain attention and drive future sales. That's just marketing 101. What's really important when doing this is to ensure that these New and Exciting Features ultimately perform to users anticipated expectations. I will use real time raytracing as an example, within the industry this has been a highly talked about breakthrough technology, many users have seen those slick gaming demonstration videos and the spectacular reflections being attained. Though no fault of the average viewer, it's easy to conclude that the key to a truly realistic render is solely reliant on the ability to perform real time raytracing. What is lost in this is the fact that Real Time Raytracing is just raytracing, which has been around for decades, just done faster. As such, if in the past you could not create an acceptable raytrace you will still have the same problem, you will only see your unacceptable result faster, "Real Time" does not mean "Better Quality". The quality of a raytrace is determined by the interfacing GUI that provides the user with the tools needed to define/adjust lighting and materials and the skill of the user in making these adjustments. In CA's video they have demonstrated the Faster aspect, however I did not see anything that indicated an improvement in the Quality related GUI. I believe CA in their rush to have this New Feature is running a high risk of user disappointment, especially if a user rushes out and drops $1,000 on a high end video card under the belief that they can just rerun an old unacceptable raytrace and now see a spectacular photo realistic rendering. What makes the risk even greater is that by imparting this feature CA  has somewhat disenfranchised Apple(Mtac) users as only Windows users can potentially use this feature. Keep in mind that the real time raytracing feature has nothing to do with the need for CA to address the move away from Open GL Obviously only time will tell if the risk was worth it.

 

From my experience Chief has consistently added new features that were kinda OK and many simply unfinished with pimples for all to see and then never revisited the feature again to improve or make truly useful. The glass house reference feature (among many) comes to mind. So much potential but unusable in (my) real world application. Will RTRT reflect that same MO? Will it only be eye candy for those without a true sweet tooth like the professional rendering experts here? Or will it evolve and change and grow in to a state of the art rendering engine that the professionals at such things can truly master and implement? Dunno.

 

As far as upgrading to the next version with or without RTRT I'm all in as I've watched Chief just get a little bit better with each version in ways that have objectively improved my productivity. RTRT? Not required for me but must say if Chief can get their act together re: same I would not complain (much lol).

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29 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

As far as upgrading to the next version with or without RTRT I'm all in as I've watched Chief just get a little bit better with each version in ways that have objectively improved my productivity. RTRT? Not required for me but must say if Chief can get their act together re: same I would not complain (much lol).

 

There's no doubt that you will do no harm by upgrading. My advice according to current political correctness is to be "Cautiously Optimistic". For myself I will hold off until I get a chance to evaluate X13, fortunately my GTX 1060 can Raytrace and though it will be slow I will still be able to see if the effect is worthy of an upgrade. If not I will just continue with regular PBR'ing or look further into a 3rd party renderer. I guess for myself I feel less of an urgency as I'm already able to obtain reflections in my PBR's that are in my opinion essentially as good as the ones shown in the demo.

 

X12 PBR with Reflections

1089753535_ShowroomCounterTopCrop2.thumb.png.99de9fed5dcb63d4e0b9356cd0c2e85f.png

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1 hour ago, HumbleChief said:

 

From my experience Chief has consistently added new features that were kinda OK and many simply unfinished with pimples for all to see and then never revisited the feature again to improve or make truly useful. The glass house reference feature (among many) comes to mind. So much potential but unusable in (my) real world application. Will RTRT reflect that same MO? Will it only be eye candy for those without a true sweet tooth like the professional rendering experts here? Or will it evolve and change and grow in to a state of the art rendering engine that the professionals at such things can truly master and implement? Dunno.

 

I agree....and what I saw in the new 3D shape modeling and even the new section tool in x13 fits this bill exactly to your point.  I watch a few different webinars from software companies and I'm always amazed in the Chief webinars how fast the questions devolve into "why doesn't chief do this" sort of questions.  Kinda like the issue related to truss heels I think you brought up - and then furthered into why or how Chief thought it best not to measure a heal the way every other truss company does.  This tends to happen when there isn't a solid resource the developers can use to ask builders, designers, or architects how something should work....instead they do it and hope its right.

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35 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

I agree....and what I saw in the new 3D shape modeling and even the new section tool in x13 fits this bill exactly to your point.  I watch a few different webinars from software companies and I'm always amazed in the Chief webinars how fast the questions devolve into "why doesn't chief do this" sort of questions.  Kinda like the issue related to truss heels I think you brought up - and then furthered into why or how Chief thought it best not to measure a heal the way every other truss company does.  This tends to happen when there isn't a solid resource the developers can use to ask builders, designers, or architects how something should work....instead they do it and hope its right.

...or like having a concrete slab treated like a 'room' with a ceiling or even a roof if one thought one was needed within a concrete slab 'room'? The list is sadly pretty long and some of the decisions were made by people who have never built anything - ever - but even given all of the niggles I still look forward to each new release, like I am with X13, because my productivity goes up every time.

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2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

...or like having a concrete slab treated like a 'room' with a ceiling or even a roof if one thought one was needed within a concrete slab 'room'? The list is sadly pretty long and some of the decisions were made by people who have never built anything - ever - but even given all of the niggles I still look forward to each new release, like I am with X13, because my productivity goes up every time.

 

...or even take the inability to reuse complex elements from one design to another.  Say I go model a timber-frame porch or stair-case and want to copy/paste in another design - not possible with Chief since we cannot block walls and other elements which are critical to the definition process of a "space".

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Johnny,

Can you explain in a bit more detail why you can't copy/paste into a new plan?

Why do you need to block walls or other elements to do a copy/paste? 

 

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21 hours ago, johnny said:

However you look at it, Chief is spending FAR more time on things that will sell new copies of their software to users that fit a target client which is not representative of my company, or many on this forum.  They seem to be developing in order to make big splashes in sales booths or youtube videos wherein a few clicks blows the audience away and they open their wallets to buy a copy or two imagining they will ride off into sunset and save thousands by not needing a design professional any longer.  The design professional needs better stair modeling tools, or generic solid modeling etc...not faster watercoloring renderings (again, as a for instance).  

 

My company has started a process of examining alternatives to Chief - and we're exploring ArchiCad in depth right now.  We may have 14 copes of X12-X13 to sell...who knows.

 

This is exactly what it is. It seems like since X9, the company has shifted the focus mostly to making things look pretty all in an effort to sell more copies to new users while neglecting the productivity features that matter to the long-term user. Sure the 3D view may look pretty (which is does), but the road to getting there can be hours upon hours of frustration. 

My business is 99% clients reaching out and asking me to quote on permit packages for city permit. At absolutely no point am I trying to "wow" clients with 3D images in the hopes to land a project. When I secure projects, what I need is software that will get the job done correctly, efficiently, and without the need to fight/trick it into doing what I want it to do, all of which produce a final product that looks professional. I've been using Chief since X3 and unfortunately there are just far too many frustrations/quirks/issues/missing features that the guys over at Chief keep deciding to ignore... and the list keeps growing. 

 

Last year I decided to make the switch to Revit for all my construction drawings and honestly, I wish I would have done it sooner. Sure it takes longer initially as you have to create a lot of your own families (windows, doors, trims etc), but once you get that out of the way, you'll find the whole design experience monumentally more enjoyable w/ minimal to no headaches. 

 

Revit is light years ahead of Chief in terms of:

  • Terrain design/manipulation
  • Object snapping
  • Custom object generation
  • Smart 3D models
  • Generic 3D modeling (imagine polyline solids that can host windows, doors etc)
  • Auto-linked sections
  • Auto-linked callouts
  • CAD tools
  • CAD Exporting
  • Level adjustments (adjusting ceiling heights, roof heights, b/o concrete heights is a breeze)
  • Phasing (absolutely incredible feature for renovations!)
  • Layouts
  • Drafting options like duplicating views/layouts
  • Temporary Hide/Isolate options 
  • 2D Detailing
  • Sloping slabs
  • Masking features
  • Alignment options/behaviour 
  • Draw distance in elevation views
  • Speed of operation
  • Overall quality of drawings
  • ... and many more

Over the last year, I've been closely watching what would come out with X13 and... yet again, another disappointment.

 

At this point the only things that Chief does well (and I'm talking really well) is to quickly create floor plans, and provide 3D views of said floor plans/simple spaces and/or the exterior of simple structures. If a client reached out and asked me to create a 3D render of an interior space, I wouldn't even think twice to do the design in Chief as there isn't anything out there that's faster (though I would still export everything into Lumion for rendering)

Anything beyond that, no thanks. I'll pass. 
 

 

 

 

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Just now, GeneDavis said:

Revit sure costs a lot.

 

Well worth it in my opinion. 

 

A 2 year subscription for Revit (full) is paid for with one project.

Also, most people can get away with Revit LT which is $450 / year... which is extremely reasonable if you ask me. 

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42 minutes ago, glennw said:

Johnny,

Can you explain in a bit more detail why you can't copy/paste into a new plan?

Why do you need to block walls or other elements to do a copy/paste? 

 

 

Hi Glenn - 

 

Let me make a video to explain - i will post.

 

JP

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These discussion almost always evolve, as they should, into what software works best for which user within which business model. They can also devolve, which they should not IMO, into Chief bashing or other software promoting as if there were a single solution for every user. It's too simple to just use what works for each user.

 

I've been using Chief for over 20 years, am 67 going on 68 years old and would never even consider another software package at this point in my life/career. Does that make me a Chief fan boi? Perhaps, but that's only because of my current career situation and goals. Watched a Revit video once and was shocked by how long it took to do the simplest of tasks and for my business the simplest of tasks is how I make a living. More complex stuff and I might have considered other software so Chief is neither good nor bad. Revit is neither good nor bad and deciding which one fits your business model is the only real decision.

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4 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

Hi Glenn - 

 

Let me make a video to explain - i will post.

 

JP

Love how these threads go sideways, looking forward to the video :D

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12 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

 67 going on 68 years old and would never even consider another software package at this point in my life/career. 

 

That is a good point..and if I was in my 60's looking at retirement soon it probably wouldn't make sense.  I'm in my low 40's so i have some time to go...lol

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Anyone had a sideways look at Andrew Peel's continually improving Home Builder software in Blender?

 

Seems a really promising work-in-progress by a really accomplished guy.

 

Would be keen to hear the opinions of the experts here on Andrew's stuff.

 

I'm blown away by all the upcoming hardware and software developments coming now from ALL the vendors.  Seems like a new Golden age of computing!  Beginning to feel like a little kid about to be let loose in the sweetshop all over again! 

 

Come April next year, I'm finally going to spring for a whole new system, and reward myself with the works.  Since I last did this yonks ago, I've fallen way behind in my PC hardware/software knowledge, and who does what best, and where the price/capability sweetspot is ... 

 

There is now so much new stuff to get one's head around first.  And then something new and better starts emerging on the horizon.  Like surfing the waves ... wait! ... wait ! ... the one coming behind is BIGGER!!!

 

A real moving target ...

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37 minutes ago, Jonnoxx said:

I'm blown away by all the upcoming hardware and software developments coming now from ALL the vendors.  Seems like a new Golden age of computing!

True that...

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On 11/13/2020 at 5:40 AM, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

I've not found that to be the case. The reason their PBR scene has all those overblown whites is that the user is not setting the sun, lights and materials correctly. My concern is that CA seems to be satisfied with their rendering results, which in my opinion is well below what the program can actually do. I struggle to find an acceptable explanation for this, do they just have a very low standard? Do they not care? Do they not have the skill? Were they in a rush? As mentioned I struggle to find an acceptable reason for this. The purpose of the Webinar was to introduce this great new real time Raytrace feature, but they demonstrated this on a scene that has many obvious issues. What's the point of adding reflections to an inherently inferior quality scene, reflections or not it is still a poor scene.

 

X12 PBR of same interior.

1785115924_X12PBR_ChiefBachelorPlanKtchen.thumb.jpg.2a848076a5e87b829efc9da70e60007c.jpg

 

Just another x12 PBR Example.

1145098581_X12PBRKitchen2bcopycrop.thumb.jpg.e6ad72c246e9639d46bd9083921b2ff2.jpg

 

     I have to agree that CA has poor lighting. Infact, this is the worse aspect of the program not only in CA Pro Line but also in the Home Designer versions. I strongly feel there is a 'gap' in either knowledge, lack of resources or priorities. If you had listened to the ray tracing seminar one of the users had asked specifically about lighting and the host was literally lost / confused by the question.

 

    Please look at those two images again. There is a distinct plaster / cartoonish look to them. It looks very similar to rasterized images produced from Twin motion (yes I do consider Twin motion to be sub-standard). Ray tracing will improve this but not by much. GPU Ray Tracing (X13) on RTX cards will improve this further but again not by much. What folks do not realize is that real time ray tracing by itself won't give you that ultra realistic result that you are seeking. GPU Rendering will improve the speed but not the result as the underlying algorithm for producing the scene is the same. Think of it as a box which works 100s of times faster than CPU rendering but it won't 'better' the image.

 

   To bring CA to the level you see in renderers  such as D5 Render, VRay and Autodesk Arnold the following needs to be done.

 

1) Improve the Global Illumination method in CA. Provide a list of algorithm choices to the user if at all possible. The following are GI algorithms:

 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_illumination

 

    Ray Tracing is just one of the GI methods.

 

2) Improve materials provided out of the box. All materials should have diffuse, displacement, bump, reflection, gloss maps at a minimum out of the box. All materials should have 512, 1K, 2K, 3K, 4K and 8K versions. When working in design mode set the materials to low mode 512, Before the final render or animation set it to a higher setting with one click.

 

3) Work on developing Volumetric Lights, Subsurface Scattering, Soft Shadows, Area Lights, Omni Lights, Photometric Lights.

 

4) Work on developing a temporally stable denoiser for the CA renderer. Absolutely critical to producing smooth animations.

 

CA has ways to go with rendering. Real time ray tracing is good but it is small icing without the whole cake.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, mhdjawwad said:

To bring CA to the level you see in renderers  such as D5 Render, VRay and Autodesk Arnold the following needs to be done.

 

Though I agree with your commentary and recommendations it seems that you may have missed the point I was attempting to make, which was that CA even with their existing program could produce better renderings than their demonstration depicts. My posted examples were not stated to be equivalent to what can be achieved in other 3rd party renderers, they are to be viewed within the context of CA only. Personally I have never expected CA to rival dedicated 3rd party renderers, I just wish they would spend some time fixing what they have so it is easier for users to generate a decent rendering without so much fussing around.

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On 10/29/2020 at 3:24 PM, HumbleChief said:

Webinar is showing all the new features. VERY nice, but for PC only...

Yeah, for now...Apple hasn't even released a video card yet to accommodate RTRT.  Supposedly by the end of 2021. If I heard correctly.

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On 11/15/2020 at 3:25 PM, MarkMc said:

image.thumb.png.28dba85f3d9852d675a197f86eafb69e.pngimage.thumb.png.8e843db40fba99f190bb9e11b9a4af43.png

I mainly do remodel design and what I do for window placement when doing the asbuilt plan at the home is measure to inside of windows and add 1.5” to account for frame and then measure to nearest wall and use Temp dimension to place and add 3/4”... easy peasy

 

And if you can’t add in your head you just +.75 to the dimension you just lasered...

 

 it doesn’t get any easier than this, not sure what the big deal is?

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As mentioned I do mostly remodels, my laptop is a few years old and works just fine to do an asbuilt on site but is struggling to keep up when I have a model with 700,000 surfaces.

 

i mostly use pbr and wc to show customers their design... because I am using the design to get the remodel the ease of which I can do this and the result is important for me.

 

Also I can then use past designs to show future customers how I can show them their new design

 

Thinks like stairs drives me crazy... they never seem to work.. so ca needs to make these kind of things work!

 

Anyhow I really like keeping up to date as @Alaskan_Son does and my new desktop computer lands next week... with a RTX 3080... bring on rtrt 

 

 

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On 11/12/2020 at 8:46 PM, solver said:

Screen capture from the video. Note how the doors and skylights render bright white, and how bright the outside light looks through the door on the left. 

 

1128517584_BRTRT1.thumb.PNG.6f67c85a165c7318179aab03f4b60c92.PNG

 

 

 

     You got me curious on this. After playing around with a DAE model exported from Home Designer Pro 2021 to 3ds MAX 2021 I believe the problem with the light fixtures here is the "Emissive" property of the light fixture itself. Try notching it down before rendering a PBR image. This should hopefully fix the appearance.

 

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This thread has me thinking a bit more. I cannot argue the nuances nor their importance within a perfectly rendered image that looks genuinely life like but I don't have clients that would notice such things and if I did I would try and find a way to not have them as clients any longer. If I were to present any one of the images shown in this thread, complete with light leaks and not quite right reflections, they would be thrilled. Does that simply reflect badly on myself and my clientele? Or is that more a reflection (see what I did there?) of a real world client presentation? Dunno but have never had a client call out minor (or major depending on one's perspective) rendering errors other than color which they are always warned cannot be reproduced accurately.

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