Joe_Carrick Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 hours ago, rlackore said: Why does moving a door label, fixture label, etc. in an elevation view force a rebuild? I would think a label could be treated like CAD objects - they simply "overlay" the model and only require a screen refresh - not an entire model rebuild. I agree. If anyone at CA is monitoring this thread, it's something that should be investigated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownTiger Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Why does moving a door label, fixture label, etc. in an elevation view force a rebuild? I would think a label could be treated like CAD objects - they simply "overlay" the model and only require a screen refresh - not an entire model rebuild. Because sometimes it is too difficult to figure-out an impact on view when generic multi-facet -object moved from place A to place B. It is much easier to invalidate the area and call repaint. The trick is normally to minimize the impacted area of repaint. CA ( Dermot?) previously stated that they already use numerous optimizations of this process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 5 hours ago, HumbleChief said: CPU, CPU, CPU - sad but a reality with today's as well as yesterday's computers. Larry - Not sure that's the solution, especially concerning the 3D Model Rebuild. I just ran the Grandview Plan on my I5 HP spectra with integrated graphics. It ran about the same as on my Alienware system which is at least 3 times more powerful with twice the cores and double the GHz. The other indicator is that during this rebuild the CPU monitor does not show a huge spike so the CPU is certainly not being pushed very much, disk access is low and the GPU is low. It really seems that there is something else going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopsaw Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said: I just ran the Grandview Plan on my I5 HP spectra with integrated graphics. Not familiar with all the HP spectra specifications but it is unlikely that the Render settings are the same as you are running with your Alienware System. Worth investigating.. 1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said: CPU monitor does not show a huge spike so the CPU is certainly not being pushed very much, disk access is low and the GPU is low. It really seems that there is something else going on here. It seems this is an issue for me as well and likely why users are constantly upgrading trying to find a solution to the slowness. Raytracing is the only function within Chief that pushes my CPU and I really wish all the other times that I wait for the little blue circle the CPU could be allowed to work and find a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 9 hours ago, BrownTiger said: Why does moving a door label, fixture label, etc. in an elevation view force a rebuild? I would think a label could be treated like CAD objects - they simply "overlay" the model and only require a screen refresh - not an entire model rebuild. Brown Tiger, What sort of rebuild are you talking about. Moving a door or window label in an elevation view does not force an Auto Rebuild Walls/Floors/Ceilings for me. It does however cause a rebuild of a mono slab if I have one. You can check this by turning off Auto Rebuild Walls/Floors/Ceilings and then moving the label. I do not get a "need to rebuild icon" next to the cursor and no rebuild takes place - except for the mono slab rebuild which happens even if I turn off auto rebuild foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 12 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said: Larry - Not sure that's the solution, especially concerning the 3D Model Rebuild. I just ran the Grandview Plan on my I5 HP spectra with integrated graphics. It ran about the same as on my Alienware system which is at least 3 times more powerful with twice the cores and double the GHz. The other indicator is that during this rebuild the CPU monitor does not show a huge spike so the CPU is certainly not being pushed very much, disk access is low and the GPU is low. It really seems that there is something else going on here. Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 11 hours ago, Chopsaw said: It seems this is an issue for me as well and likely why users are constantly upgrading trying to find a solution to the slowness. Raytracing is the only function within Chief that pushes my CPU and I really wish all the other times that I wait for the little blue circle the CPU could be allowed to work and find a solution. Yeah, where do we look Chief? What do we change when our plans start to bog down? If it's not hardware then where/what could it be? And is there simply no solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, HumbleChief said: Yeah, where do we look Chief? What do we change when our plans start to bog down? If it's not hardware then where/what could it be? And is there simply no solution? I'm becoming suspicious that there may be a conflict with some other process when the 3D Model Rebuild is running. When I monitor things Chief goes into a "not responding mode", This usually indicates that something is requesting something from Chief and Chief is not responding to the request. It could be a shared resource that is working on something else and therefore Chief can't proceed until it has finished with it's other task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlackore Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 14 hours ago, BrownTiger said: Because sometimes it is too difficult to figure-out an impact on view when generic multi-facet -object moved from place A to place B. It is much easier to invalidate the area and call repaint. I am referring to moving an object Label, not the object itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlackore Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 4 hours ago, glennw said: Brown Tiger, What sort of rebuild are you talking about. Moving a door or window label in an elevation view does not force an Auto Rebuild Walls/Floors/Ceilings for me. I posted the question - not Brown Tiger - he must have used copy/paste instead of quoting me. Moving object labels while in a Cross-Section / Elevation view forces a rebuild for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 14 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said: Larry - Not sure that's the solution, especially concerning the 3D Model Rebuild. I just ran the Grandview Plan on my I5 HP spectra with integrated graphics. It ran about the same as on my Alienware system which is at least 3 times more powerful with twice the cores and double the GHz. The other indicator is that during this rebuild the CPU monitor does not show a huge spike so the CPU is certainly not being pushed very much, disk access is low and the GPU is low. It really seems that there is something else going on here. My new Xeons should be here tomorrow and I'll get them installed this weekend. A system with those processors was once deemed one of the fastest desktops in the world (about 5 - 7 years ago which I know is a LONG time in computer years) but I do not expect them to blow today's fast i7's out of the water, nor do I expect them to provide a definitive answer to the many questions in this thread, nor do I expect my sloppy benchmarks to be accurate, but I do expect to provide perhaps another clue to the behavior of Chief with a system with simply, all else being equal, faster processors. Looking forward to it with expectations on the low side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 I've just noticed what appears to be a very strange behavior. With my CPU usage monitor running, if I just move my cursor within the active window in Chief my CPU throttles up to 4.2GHz, I'm not moving anything around, just moving the pointer over the window area. If I move my cursor over to any of the program menu regions my CPU frequency drops to about 1.6GHz. This also happens in a plan view and elevation. If I stop moving the cursor the CPU drops to 1.6 GHz. Also my CPU fan cranks up when moving the cursor. However, if say on the plan I zoom in and out with the scroll wheel my CPU throttles up a bit but even if it maxes out the cooling fan does not crank up. This also happens with my GPU load, moving over the active window jumps the load to about 60%, moving the cursor around on any other part of Chief or on my other screen the GPU usage is only about 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Xeons just arrived. There's NO WAY I'll be able to wait for the weekend. They'll be in tonight just need to get some good thermal paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Larry, I hope it all works out for you, but you are thinking from behind by getting older Zeons. I think about the future and know I will need a new system every so many years to keep thinks running smoothly. There comes a time when just replacing things isn't working in your favor. Too many bottlenecks can only be solved by a new motherboard and a system that flows freely and fined tuned. Good luck buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said: Larry, I hope it all works out for you, but you are thinking from behind by getting older Zeons. I think about the future and know I will need a new system every so many years to keep thinks running smoothly. There comes a time when just replacing things isn't working in your favor. Too many bottlenecks can only be solved by a new motherboard and a system that flows freely and fined tuned. Good luck buddy. Yeah, couldn't agree more Perry and have explained my, I think, unique situation in a few threads. It will cost me around $2000 or perhaps closer to $4000 if I buy retail to upgrade to a newer system that will get me just a little bit better performance as my system is still pretty fast. Not smokin' fast any more but adequate. So I have instead chosen to invest $300 to see if this machine will last another 2 - 4 years. Could very well be a fools errand as you are suggesting but I am willing to find out. I'll post any results as objectively as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 4 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said: I'm becoming suspicious that there may be a conflict with some other process when the 3D Model Rebuild is running. When I monitor things Chief goes into a "not responding mode", This usually indicates that something is requesting something from Chief and Chief is not responding to the request. It could be a shared resource that is working on something else and therefore Chief can't proceed until it has finished with it's other task. After digging a bit and analyzing my own systems, I came to realize that my laptop's speed on the grandview plan is very formidable. Without digging in too much, I think it may have to do with my distribution. I have one of those lightning fast samsung 950 m.2 drives as the OS, but my temp and undo folder are set on my secondary drive. When I delete in the Grandview plans I see spikes from the CPU, and both hard drives. If I set the undo folder to its default, the OS harddrive spikes quite a bit more. Maybe the hard drive is the bottleneck for some systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said: Maybe the hard drive is the bottleneck for some systems I have a suspicion that is true but no hard (drive?) data to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 53 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said: After digging a bit and analyzing my own systems, I came to realize that my laptop's speed on the grandview plan is very formidable. Without digging in too much, I think it may have to do with my distribution. I have one of those lightning fast samsung 950 m.2 drives as the OS, but my temp and undo folder are set on my secondary drive. When I delete in the Grandview plans I see spikes from the CPU, and both hard drives. If I set the undo folder to its default, the OS harddrive spikes quite a bit more. Maybe the hard drive is the bottleneck for some systems Unlikely, many of the disk operations function in the background so your system would not hang. While in CA there is not a lot of drive access going on once your plan has loaded. Spikes on your CPU are normal and they in themselves do not necessarily indicate a problem. When Ray Tracing your CPU runs @ 100% until the Ray Trace is finished. It's just saying that the CPU is working @ it's maximum efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Installed new Xeons and noticed no real change. Did some bonehead benchmarks and no change in the numbers or perceived speed. OC'd to 3.9 Ghz and it ran too hot (100C during RayTracing). Back to stock settings and am done upgrading this hardware. Hope that helps someone in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 5 hours ago, DRAWZILLA said: Larry, I hope it all works out for you, but you are thinking from behind by getting older Zeons. I think about the future and know I will need a new system every so many years to keep thinks running smoothly. There comes a time when just replacing things isn't working in your favor. Too many bottlenecks can only be solved by a new motherboard and a system that flows freely and fined tuned. Good luck buddy. Did not work out Perry. You were correct, the older tech just really can't keep up no matter the muscle installed. System is still really quick and might be a bit 'snappier' feeling but nothing dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yusuf-333 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Well here are few other model speed determinants you can take advantage. Before I go to those, let me emphasise that, while working on model we want to see changes appear immediately and auto rebuild floors/ceilings are prefered to be active for me, though there is a stage I reach to make it off after model structural basics are no more expected to change. Here are some other factors I have seen to be speed determinants. I have tested this settings on massing a commercial building that had 400000 surfaces. 1. Software edge smoothing in preference/render panel, is a major determinant of speed. And its impact is very significant as you go from 0-100 2. Hardware edge smoothing in the same dbx to #1 which has drop down settings like none, 2x..8x etc. When I select "none" sluggishness decreases significantly, I am not so sure about #2, but hopefully Graham will experiment and correct me if I am wrong. 3. In 3d view defaults panel there is a setting for colour "off" and "on" regarding elevation, orthographic and perspective views. Not sure about this again but I suspect it also make some difference. Again in the same dbx window there are settings related to 3d views and are there as a function of "layer set basis" and "object basis", I think this is area has also an impact on speed. I am sure some one will explain it more scientifically, but I can see some or all of the above have a great impact on speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 3, 2017 Author Share Posted May 3, 2017 1 hour ago, yusuf-333 said: Well here are few other model speed determinants you can take advantage. Before I go to those, let me emphasise that, while working on model we want to see changes appear immediately and auto rebuild floors/ceilings are prefered to be active for me, though there is a stage I reach to make it off after model structural basics are no more expected to change. Here are some other factors I have seen to be speed determinants. I have tested this settings on massing a commercial building that had 400000 surfaces. 1. Software edge smoothing in preference/render panel, is a major determinant of speed. And its impact is very significant as you go from 0-100 2. Hardware edge smoothing in the same dbx to #1 which has drop down settings like none, 2x..8x etc. When I select "none" sluggishness decreases significantly, I am not so sure about #2, but hopefully Graham will experiment and correct me if I am wrong. 3. In 3d view defaults panel there is a setting for colour "off" and "on" regarding elevation, orthographic and perspective views. Not sure about this again but I suspect it also make some difference. Again in the same dbx window there are settings related to 3d views and are there as a function of "layer set basis" and "object basis", I think this is area has also an impact on speed. I am sure some one will explain it more scientifically, but I can see some or all of the above have a great impact on speed. Yusuf - I have obtained similar results. Always use Hardware Smoothing versus Software. The lower the smoothing setting the faster things will be. I have not found that the colour makes any noticeable difference. However, Shadows "On" will. I have done more testing with Architectural Blocks and they definitely impact on the 3D Model Rebuild time. Gets even worse if you nest Blocks within Blocks. Suspect it has to unpack the blocks and then repack them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said: The lower the smoothing setting the faster things will be I find the opposite is true, I always keep that on the fastest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 10 hours ago, DRAWZILLA said: I find the opposite is true, I always keep that on the fastest Maybe it was my wording. The lower the smoothing effect the faster the camera render. Too make the lines smooth (less jagged) during motion requires more computations and therefor more time. This slowdown will vary according to the capabilities of your graphic card in conjunction with the complexity of the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitchenAbode Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 For those wishing to play around a bit I've attached a very simple plan, just a chandelier copied a multitude of times. There are 3.8 million surfaces in total. If you want to test with this, just keep deleting or adding fixtures until you find the acceptable level of performance limit for your configuration, report the number of fixtures your configuration can handle. Once you have found the limit for your particular system it is then fairly easy to evaluate the impact of other settings such as Blocking, Smoothing, Shadows, etc. Abode_ System Stress Test.plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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