William Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Is there any way to add a DISCLAIMER to the Material List? To clarify my question, I'm referring to a disclaimer like the one that is shown on page 1225 of the Chief Architect X6 Reference Manual: "The Materials List is based on certain assumptions that may not match your building style. Chief Architect makes no representation as to the accuracy or reliability of the Materials List generated by Chief Architect. Always compare the Materials List with a manual take-off before providing a quote or ordering materials for a job." And yes, I could just take the time add the disclaimer to each of the exported lists, but, like many of the questions/requests you will see in the forum, my question is aimed at SAVING A LITTLE TIME on what would be a very simple task performed by the software. Does anyone have a suggestion that would actually answer my question?? Edited March 3, 2015 by William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Export the Materials List to Excel or .... and enter your disclaimer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Can we ask why? The materials list is accurate to what is in the model. The numbers may not make much sense, but they are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 ahhhh not quite Joey ,there are numerous errors with calculations , has been for years eg this thread from late last year , it is one of my pet peeves with CA, As a remodeler I had hoped to use this feature extensively but it is essentially a waste of time , since the program doesn't allow for many of the smaller items either , eg bolts, hangers , nails , glue and on an on. I'm thinking a disclaimer is a good idea but it basically makes the ML useless ,certainly not good enough for Bidding, though I'd be happy if you or someone else can show me the error of my ways... https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/529-material-list-bug/page-1#entry3856 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 CA states in the manual the ML is only as good as the model with all the "workarounds" that Chief needs the OOB ML should be verified very carefully for accuracy with lots of manual tweaking - then maybe ??? Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The materials list is accurate to what is in the model In my statement above.....there are no hangers, glue, etc in the model. It does however count anchor bolts based on the spacing you tell it to. What calculations are wrong? My builders use the list a lot...never a problem. And Lew, enough already. If you are still using a bunch of "workarounds" to build your models than you need to switch to AutoCAD LT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mthd97 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 CA states in the manual the ML is only as good as the model with all the "workarounds" that Chief needs the OOB ML should be verified very carefully for accuracy with lots of manual tweaking - then maybe ??? Lew What does OOB stand for Lew?I agree with Lew about the accuracy as I will do all my calculations manualy as well. As to omition of all tiny Items, thats when estimating comes in. You can always specify these inadequacies on you own disclamer an recomend a manual ckeck but I would think that any reasonable building contractor would do this anyway. We are still asking Chief to give us more control over the ML so we can get a more complete and accurate ML. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I agree with Lew about the accuracy as I will do all my calculations manualy as well. Again...what inaccuracies? My guys use the list and love it! I would like to give them a heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 If you are still using a bunch of "workarounds" to build your models than you need to switch to AutoCAD LT Joey: this is BS and you know it .... there are a "zillion" workarounds in Chief they have been discussed "ad naseum" on this forum I've been on this forum for a decade and you are one of a handful that find the ML to be "wonderful" maybe you can do videos on how you use it so others can learn cause I hear nothing but complaints about it not being "accurate" and "not ready for prime time" Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 OOB = Out Of the Box ie as setup by Chief automatically when 1st installed. I guess you didn't read the thread I linked to above Joey ? you will find others too if you do a quick search https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/3588-wall-material-sqm/ at other times it completely misses things like the Studs on furred walls etc. Unfortunately it doesn't follow Industry standard QS practices and since we can't in anyway "alter" how it calculates things ,we can't even fix it ourselves so, it is hard to trust. For example on a current Arbor project if I generate a "Buy" list for where I am going to buy a 14' 9 3/4" 3x8 for a Rafter? Everybody knows you need to buy a 16' but that's not what is listed. If it had one or two bugs you knew about you could work around them but ,there is no good way to determine what it get right and doesn't , AFAIK anyway.... as I said I'd be happy to be shown it's "User Error" , since I had hoped this would be a major Time saver for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Mick, Could be user error! I have no trouble getting the Material List to include a 16' piece of 3"x8" lumber for a 14' 93/4" rafter. Have you edited the Buy List to tell Chief what you can buy - Chief can't do it all for you! What is the problem with studs on furred walls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I admit I have not played with it in X7 , so don't know if it has improved or not ? I literally just got X6 ( now X7 Beta) , and have not tried that particular plan again in either . The Thread linked above was in X6 back in Dec and Jan I think and there were issues with a simple test 10'x10' CBS/CBU building. It could also be that I look at a materials list from a Builder's/ Contractor's point of view , not an Architect's which is likely different, though I am not the only one to make these comments , there is possibly a number of us that don't quite "get" CA's (poor) documentation about the ML. Guess I should have another play in a test plan and check things out... M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Glen....no I had not added my 3x8 to the Buy list however it was on the ML just not at the Buy length , this is fault is showing in my test plan below too , though I have not figured out why my spec'd 2x10 Rafters are in the ML and Framing overview as 2x4's , too late tonight to delve deeper into that but I might need to go back to beginner school Ok I had a play with a test 20'x20' with no foundation, and have not got my calculator out to test actual sqfts etc but some things straight off that don't meet a "buy list" or real world situation. BTW ...is there a default way to add waste? (called "extra" in ML I think) since no QS (or Builder) in the real world would do a take off with out it either? Rafters lengths are showing as 22'10", which you can't buy at least not here, special order ?, though I think this is actually the sub fascia though not called that Rafters lengths are showing as 7'8 5/8" ,should be 8' on a buy list Ridges are actually the hip rafters I think since there is no ridge ... I have never seen 6"x96" wall insulation not sure where they typically insulate floors with 12" Batt but maybe an anomaly since I didn't build the Foundation to keep the ML simple. On a 20x20 , you would buy 10' sheets of drywall for both the Ceiling and walls to reduce butt joints , seems everything is calculate in 4'x8' sheets, here the wall sheets would also be 54"x120" sheets too since 9' stud height why does it show the Ceiling sqft "Color" and not the Wall sqft "Color" , which is the Paint I assume ,which ITRW would typically get 3 coats not one too. The Test plan ML Test Plan_X6.plan Mick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Mick, You really need to delve into the tools you are describing above and learn to use them properly - which you are not presently doing. You are expecting too much of Chief to give it all to you in the format you want without a bit of preparation. How is Chief meant to know what your buy lengths are or the size of your drywall panels? You need to tell Chief these things if the defaults aren't what you want. You need to learn how to set up the defaults so that when you ask for the information from Chief, you get what you want. Briefly: You need to edit the default Buy List or create a new one so that it reports the information in the manner you want. You can manually add waste in the Extra column. Your roof is only built with the smaller rafters. The paint color is in the Ceiling Finish spec. There is no paint finish on the walls, so why would you expect that in a ML? If you want more colors or coats - add them. If you want a different drywall size - define the material with the correct size. etc, etc..... As far as I can tell the material list is reporting exactly what Chief is set up to report. If you don't want it that way, you need to set things up to suit your situation so that materials get reported the way you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 M.L. might be a good topic for a workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 As far as I can tell the material list is reporting exactly what Chief is set up to report. If you don't want it that way, you need to set things up to suit your situation so that materials get reported the way you want. BOOM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Joey: in a thread from 2009 you stated: http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?44723-Materials-list&highlight=material+list I am going to be completely honest, and this will hurt. For those that keep telling users that an accurate model is to hard to achieve, do us a favor and delete your account, sell your copy of Chief, and go to work selling Kirby vacuums or some such s*@t. I am so over hearing that load of crap...that I **** near just threw my laptop across the f'in room. It may take you an hour...maybe...and after a few models, that time will shrink accordingly. So if you are posting tens of thousands of post, have worked with Chief since version 1 or 2 or whatever, and still believe that perfect models are only created by peter pan, or leprechauns at the end of the rainbow...then please do us a frigin favor and quit!! this "debate" was on-going when I joined the forum in 2004 and is still going on if the ML was as you state then when so many threads about its short-comings ??? https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/4132-material-list-pricing/ http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?62593-Materials-List-Revisited&highlight=softlist http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?52853-Material-Take-Offs-Builder-s-Show-and-other-stuff&highlight=softlist http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?62446-Material-Lists-Ruby&highlight=softlist http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?65579-Estimating-material-lists&highlight=material+list http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?63407-Best-material-list-alternative&highlight=material+list http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?62801-Material-List-Problems-to-Solve&highlight=material+list http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?62606-Materials-List-improvements-Please-add-your-thoughts&highlight=material+list These are just some of the threads from the old forum there are many, many more I don't use the ML - never have and now that I'm retired - never will my only interest is to get CA to recognize that the ML has issues and has had issues for over a decade I think it is wonderful that it works for you but others should be aware that the ML has short-comings and without a lot of manual tweaking may not be reliable Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I don't use the ML - never have and now never will Then you are simply passing on information from those that are using the list wrong. Chief will not report something that isn't there, and will report everything that is there. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicinus Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 M.L. might be a good topic for a workshop. Where do I sign up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Where do I sign up?? First we need a guru who will volunteer to teach it. Anybody available? If no one is available, I will try to figure it out in the next couple of weeks and put it together. I am having more clients ask for this. The real reason that I have been so hesitant to learn it is I do mostly remodels. It seems like it would be twice the work since somehow I need to be able to distiguish between new rafters and existing rafters, or new concrete footings and existing. A lot more work with setting up the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Just turn off the MATERIALS LIST option for the layer called FRAMING, RAFTER-EXTG and they won't show. The layer sets are also a good way to control what is shown and what isn't shown on the ML. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I know there is some info for energy calc's in the ML, useful for the calc's, Other than that, I really haven't used it at all. Also, it's almost too much, to set it up to be accurate for remodels. I have my new walls and existing walls but there is much more setup for those. Not sure if I could ever get remodels very accurate. Yes good topic for a workshop to learn all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Chief will not report something that isn't there, and will report everything that is there. It's that simple. Joey: that is the whole point if it was THAT simple then why do so many users have so many problems ??? I didn't say the ML was worthless or forever inaccurate I said it may not be reliable OOB and will probably need lots of manual tweaks to be accurate and each workaround adds to the probability of "issues" Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The materials list doesn't need "that many tweeks" if the model is accurate. One example is in the post above somewhere about drywall. Of course his materials list was wrong....he modeled it that way. If you model with the defaults set up like you want to build the structure, then the materials list will be correct. Your turning user error and frustration into statements of fact, and it isn't fair to CA or to those that want to use the information. You can't personally attest to the accuracy or ease of use of the tool, so stop insinuating that it's worthless. Many...MANY..of the frustrations with the Material List are in fact user error, and poor modeling. Now that statement I present as fact...none of yours are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis_Gavin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 IN remodeling using the material list would be impractical. I often draw things in for presentation that are not going to be touched at all except MAYBE a fresh coat of paint. Recently designed a deck using polyline solids for beams and stone pillars. That would not present in the material list. I actually tried using framed walls with a stone finish "just to see" and it played havoc with things. I am not faulting Chief. I accept it. The program can't be all things for all people. What it gives in one are it takes away in another. (The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away). ;o) See the attached render references above and let me know if there is an accurate way to construct the stone columns and boxed beams and have the material in the material list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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