DHerb2014 Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I tried searching this topic and my apologies if it's been covered ad nauseam, as I didn't get any good results. I've been using a Bosch laser (non-BlueTooth) and paper pad and pencil for many years. With the new iPad and iPhone LiDAR scanning abilities, do you have a preferred app that you'd recommend? One that would be very accurate and able to "stitch" rooms together to bring back to office and import into X13/X14? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para-CAD Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I've been playing with magicplan a bit and looking at arcsite. I even had a Matterport Pro 2....but that has been sold for lack of use and yearly server subscription. I like very precise measurements so neither of these work solo for me. Magicplan seems the most user friendly. Search up YouTube for tutorials on LiDAR apps, best in 2022. Then you can share your experience with whatever you have tried. 35' tape 150' tape (2) laser measuring devices (Bosch) a 3-plane laser (Milwaukee M12) GoPro iPhone for video and stills graph paper laptop with CA installed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 10 hours ago, para-CAD said: .......I like very precise measurements so neither of these work solo for me............ Then you can share your experience with whatever you have tried. 35' tape 150' tape (2) laser measuring devices (Bosch) a 3-plane laser (Milwaukee M12) GoPro iPhone for video and stills graph paper laptop with CA installed I use a 35' tape for exterior measurements, a level (rarely used), Bosch measuring device for inside dimensions, an Iphone for pics, graph paper to draw plans at 1/8" scale (no computer on site) and a very attractive assistant, my wife, (she retired last December) or her sister. It takes between 1.0 - 3.0 hours for a measure. Including initial research, measuring on site, creating as builts at the office and an hour at the driving range, it takes between 7.0- 16.0 hours. If all the little interior boxes fit into the exterior perimeter, I did a good job. Errors are within 1"-2". I do not trust the LIDAR method..... but I am open to someone proving me wrong. Go Padres!!!!(I become a hardcore Padre fan 9 days ago when they made the playoffs) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 34 minutes ago, dshall said: and an hour at the driving range Finally figured out what I've been doing wrong. I didn't know this was an option, but do now. Thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richoffan Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 How else would you calibrate the proposed structure is a 7 iron away from ______ I agree paper and PENCIL (old school) and of course eraser. Many tricks. Postit "flags" to catch laser beam etc. When sketched correctly, filled in with different colored ink. Different colors mean different things so picking info off the roughs to draw existing only requires a glance (after years of consistent use). Will use lasers with tape. Prefer Nikon ColorPix set to raw with date and time stamp - you can zoom in from ridiculous distances without pixilating. You can never have too many pictures and Irfanview makes sorting a breeze. Angle gauge is very helpful. Will use My Measures Pro especially if something is a pita to sketch (spiral stairs) Will input direct to laptop if conditions permit. Rare for a 4000sf highly accurate field documentation to take more than 5.5 hours ± - depends on site conditions and much less with an "assistant". No calibration included. Have a system and follow it! Jacyna Bath Roughs 11.9.2016.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHCanada2 Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 i've found that the most efficient if you can do it is to: 1. predraw the exterior of the house in CA using a survey and google maps to see the roof structure, elevation of house above grade (count the front steps). draw in windows and doors you can see 2. print these out, 2 copies 3. if possible, while on site draw everything directly in CA, but use the print outs and the bosch laser to go around and get dimensions, and to draw interior walls on the paper to go with the measurements. take pictures of critical maeasurements like furnace clearances, plumbing rough ins ets 4. sanity check once drawn in CA 5. Take elevation measurements outside and write them on printed out elevations 6. go back to office and draw correct elevations with terrain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHerb2014 Posted October 20, 2022 Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 All great comments! I've researched ArcSite, Magic Plan, PolyCam, Scaniverse, and Canvas. All have good and bad points. That said, I'm still doing research and will report back with findings. With new technology, there should be a way of saving a lot of time and having accurate scans - hopefully. Will keep you posted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterdd Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 I have been looking into Lidar myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 I change my methods depending on the scope of work. If it's a whole house remodel I'll measure every nook and cranny carefully and focus on the important parts moving forward. If there is a small room addition or small remodel I'll measure less carefully on the whole and focus on the areas that are involved in the proposed scope of work. If the scope is for a new accessory dwelling unit I'll be extra lazy measuring the main house as the minor details are not usually important. I use a Bosch laser and used to measure both inside and out but now only measure the inside and add outside measurements only when needed. I sketch the floor plan out on a blank sheet of paper and add measurements for each room as I go. Complete chicken scratch. Did I mention lazy above? I either tried or looked seriously into the newer technologies like Chief's room planner and just found too many problems in my real world application. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 20 minutes ago, HumbleChief said: but now only measure the inside and add outside measurements only when needed. I sketch the floor plan out on a blank sheet of paper and add measurements for each room as I go. Complete chicken scratch. Totally agree with this method. Works fine as the sketch gets put into CA and walls are pushed or pulled by dimension and it starts to look correct even when initial sketch floor plan looks like it was done with an Etch-A-Sketch. Take note of wall thickness at doors, easy enough, Windows and door offset from a wall, plus window/door specifics. A few "checks" where possible on any longer distance visibility between walls as a check to others. With a tape measure and my Leica D8 its actually pretty easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designers_Ink Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 I use a laser measuring device (fairly cheap, but accurate). I used to take a pad of graph paper and write all of my notes on a sketch, but now I use a Remarkable 2 electronic writing pad. It feels like paper when you write on it, it allows you to import .pdfs or .pngs if you have a sketch already laid out you want to just write the notes on as you, and it automatically syncs all of my notes back to my computer or cell phone. You can zoom in and out to get thing big enough to see when you import large drawings. The days of trying to figure out which pad of paper I took certain notes on are finally over. Another advantage, is that since the notes are synced to the client's file folder, my draftsman has access to them, so we don't have to keep track of who has what paper note at any given point. I also use it for client meetings and have custom forms on it that lets me go room by room with a checklist to make sure we don't figure to cover a topic. Very lightweight, and the battery lasts for weeks between recharges. I can also keep all my reference books on it, so I have them anywhere I go, with my highlights and notes on them. One of the better gadgets I've bought over the years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 14 hours ago, DHerb2014 said: All great comments! I've researched ArcSite, Magic Plan, PolyCam, Scaniverse, and Canvas. All have good and bad points. That said, I'm still doing research and will report back with findings. With new technology, there should be a way of saving a lot of time and having accurate scans - hopefully. Will keep you posted... We aren't quite there yet. Combination of Lidar and photogrammetry can get 99% accuracy but only in optimal conditions(matterport just released such a device and intel has had one out for a while but is discontinued for lack of developer interest). Daylighting and overcast light from windows will always interupt a Lidar sensor and give a ton of artifacts and missing data. Even if you use pattern targeting and photogrammetry the stitiching of multiple point shots will always introduce error as well. Not to mention the amount of data that would be required for 100% accuracy..simply not attainable at this moment to have accurate scans...then again it depends on what you consider "accurate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHerb2014 Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 Just checked out Cubicasa and Matterport platforms. Neither is very accurate and one even missed the dimensions by over 11 inches. A workaround might be using Magic Plan with a laser input for dimensions, stitching the rooms together and exporting as a .dwg or .dxf format into Chief. Photogrammetry is interesting but appears that it would not work well with what we do for floor plans and elevations. Still researching and will post findings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHCanada2 Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, DHerb2014 said: Just checked out Cubicasa and Matterport platforms. Neither is very accurate and one even missed the dimensions by over 11 inches. A workaround might be using Magic Plan with a laser input for dimensions, stitching the rooms together and exporting as a .dwg or .dxf format into Chief. Photogrammetry is interesting but appears that it would not work well with what we do for floor plans and elevations. Still researching and will post findings... There are other posts on this topic as well. I looked at magicplan and others, but noticed when they stich things together, they start making the walls thicker and thinner or the room narrower or wider to try and make the outside correct. I'd rather me try and find out why something is wrong, rather than the algorithm assuming is is the middle room that need to be narrower, there is always a reason and from what I have observed, it is never what the algorithm determines is best for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgardner Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 8 hours ago, SHCanada2 said: There are other posts on this topic as well. I looked at magicplan and others, but noticed when they stich things together, they start making the walls thicker and thinner or the room narrower or wider to try and make the outside correct. I'd rather me try and find out why something is wrong, rather than the algorithm assuming is is the middle room that need to be narrower, there is always a reason and from what I have observed, it is never what the algorithm determines is best for you. That is not an algorithm it is a low paid draftsman in another country going through the scan and measuring and drafting the floor plan.... If you are going to use a scanning service which I use all the time I highly recommend Matterport (with a professional matterport camera not a lidar phone camera) but in addition get a hover.to exterior scan, lots of pictures and some key exterior measurements (overall is helpful.) Get the raw scan itself and trace over a screen grab and draw out then go room by room inside the scan checking dimensions and placement. Hover will give you exterior dimensions and is pretty accurate with the roof. In most cases that will get you within remodel accuracy zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHCanada2 Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, rgardner said: Hover will give you exterior dimensions and is pretty accurate with the roof. In most cases that will get you within remodel accuracy zone. I looked at hover but did not really see the value, given its accuracy. I perceive it as more of a exterior material estimating platform Are you using it just to get the outside dimensions? It seems like a bit of a price to pay for only those dimensions. and I assume where there are trees and bushes manual dimensions still need to be taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgardner Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 23 minutes ago, SHCanada2 said: I looked at hover but did not really see the value, given its accuracy. I perceive it as more of a exterior material estimating platform Are you using it just to get the outside dimensions? It seems like a bit of a price to pay for only those dimensions. and I assume where there are trees and bushes manual dimensions still need to be taken? It is fairly accurate on exterior dimensions but as I mentioned above it is the best that I have found for Roof slopes/sizes, etc. It is a checkpoint to the matterport interior and I always ask for a couple of key exterior dimensions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 1 hour ago, rgardner said: It is fairly accurate ..... That is a good question, what is fairly accurate? Within 1" error or 8" error? "but noticed when they stich things together, they start making the walls thicker and thinner or the room narrower or wider to try and make the outside correct." I bet this could be a big issue...... I think Mr. Rabbit said it best..... " Even if you use pattern targeting and photogrammetry the stitiching of multiple point shots will always introduce error as well.Not to mention the amount of data that would be required for 100% accuracy..simply not attainable at this moment to have accurate scans...then again it depends on what you consider "accurate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgardner Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, dshall said: 1 hour ago, rgardner said: It is fairly accurate ..... That is a good question, what is fairly accurate? Within 1" error or 8" error? This is highly varying depending upon the user. I have a client who is patient and lines up his pictures well and I have seen it within 1/2" on a 40' run with his. Another client who is not as patient and have seen 4-6" off. Camera could definitely be part of it in that case but my guess is angle of the photo has more. However with hover I have not found an inaccurate roof yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richoffan Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Agree with Scott and by extension Rene. I understand where Larry's coming from also. If the project doesn't warrant it or it's an adjacent space for context only I'm not going to waste time needlessly. If it's part of the project, especially a kitchen or millwork or some such then accuracy is critical to my designs (see pic). I've been getting highly accurate field measures long before these "tools" existed and don't feel the need to be the beta test. My laser measure is accurate to 1/16" over 20' - very good for over all room dims, ceiling heights etc. but basically worthless in a bright sun. Just don't see the value of the new toys...yet. Now, if I'm reading Ryan's post correctly, if the client's providing the field work I only care the info is usable. Standard clause when working that way: The Client shall provide all field services required for the draftsman to perform his responsibilities including but not limited to dimensions, digital photographs, notation, and specification of existing conditions. Draftsman is entitled to rely on the accuracy and completeness of such information and is not responsible in any way for the accuracy and completeness of any reports, surveys, criteria, specification, or direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHerb2014 Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 What would you recommend for a laser measure? Would you go Bluetooth or no? Looks like the consensus is to stay with old school ways of measuring (for now) and using a grid pad of paper for scaling. LiDAR has some potential, just not ready for prime time yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 One product I've used for years is this: https://www.amazon.com/Freehand-Designer-Straight-Templates-Drawings/dp/B01EX94YH8 Takes a little practice, but helps you draw much faster. I'd recommend the clip board with clips on three sides, too. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHerb2014 Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 Thanks Richard. Great idea. Just have to get a large clipboard and we’re good to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para-CAD Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 11x17 Inch Ledger Hardboard/Clipboard with 3 Lever Operated Clips and a Mini-Calculator, Either Landscape or Portrait Media Format, ECO-Friendly and Great Drafting Drawing Board Brown (1 Pack) https://a.co/d/5zUAXdZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para-CAD Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 I would like to try this, but only if I win the lotto. https://leica-geosystems.com/en-us/products/laser-scanners/scanners/blk360 https://shop.leica-geosystems.com/leica-blk/blk360 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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