Door & Window Headers - Question

[Joe_Carrick]

When a Header is created by Chief it generally will be according to the size required by the opening width.  However, if the wall is too short to provide the required depth between the top plates and the top of the opening then Chief reduces the Header depth. 

 

IMO the software should instead do one of the following:

1. Show an error condition so that the user could take appropriate action (Preferred Option)
2. Lower the "Top of the Opening" by whatever distance is needed to provide the correct header depth.

Either of the above would be IMO preferable to just reducing the Header depth.

 

What do you think should be done by the software?

[Chopsaw]

Yes that would be great Joe.  Maybe a popup that gives the warning and then the option to ignore or take a suggested action.

 

Automatic reduction of header depth is just wrong.  Better that chief recognizes the error than the building inspector or framers.

[rgardner]

2 hours ago, Chopsaw said:

Yes that would be great Joe.  Maybe a popup that gives the warning and then the option to ignore or take a suggested action.

 

Automatic reduction of header depth is just wrong.  Better that chief recognizes the error than the building inspector or framers.

Yup I agree.  an error message would be preferred but not allowing you to make the window that size would be an alternate in my book forcing me to go see why I can't do that big.  I would hate for it to be something small like a 1-2" height difference for something like that in case I missed it on cross-check and then it gets framed with that one window lower than the rest.  my 2Cents...

[Doug_N]

Joe, I am on board with your comments.  The error message would be best, rather than a "silent" adjustment that you may be unaware of.

[Alaskan_Son]

This is a slippery slope guys.  This type of thing happens with just about everything I can think of in Chief.  If we can justify spending development time on a warning for door and window headers then I’m sure there are 30 or 40 other warnings that could be justified as well.  
 

I don’t think anything should be changed about the way it works now.  I would just turn the warning off myself and I sure as $#!+ don’t want Chief automatically moving or changing the size of my openings.  It’s my job to make sure my window and door heights are set correctly just like it’s my job to make sure my beams have support under them.  By the way, think about what happens when we place things with intentions of making adjustments later....like placing taller doors knowing that the ceiling height will be increased. Do you really want Chief to downsize all those openings just so you can open them all up and change them back?  Or what about those circumstances where window/door headers aren’t actually necessary or could be pushed up into or even above the top plates?  Lots and lots of scenarios where having Chief make changes automatically would be a bad idea and as such I think almost everyone would just end up turning the added function off anyway.  

[Doug_N]

Michael,

It changes the header now.  That is the point.  Issuing a warning would be a great feature.

[Joe_Carrick]

I would actually love to have some framing options for openings:

• Option to move header up to plates if < 1.5" (no cripples)
• Option to add plates or increase header size automatically up to 4"
• Option to move/reduce the top of opening to maintain minimum header size.

[Alaskan_Son]

3 minutes ago, Doug_N said:

Michael,

It changes the header now.

That’s what I’m saying.  Chief does that with a TON of things.  It changes wall heights and shapes, changes moldings, changes platform and wall framing, changes terrain, changes foundation cutouts, changes wall connections, changes wall layers, changes wall types, adds walls, deletes walls, allows slabs to extend through cabinets, allows beams with no bearing, cuts posts down to beam heights, etc etc.... sometimes in ways that result in a totally unbuildable structure and that make no sense at all, but that’s also what gives us creative freedom and allows us to actually progressively model things.  Do you really want to open the door for all those warnings?

 

And by the way, I purposely place windows and doors in positions all the time that don’t allow for the defined header height to fit—sometimes with intentions to change the header afterward and sometimes I don’t care and I’m not using the wall framing anyway.  For example, I might be placing some windows under a gable that don’t actually require a header anyway.  And what happens if you drag out a roof or ceiling plane that’s cuts into the window or header area?  Do you really want a warning to pop-up every time that happens?  Or do you really want Chief to change your openings on you?  
 

Ya, I definitely don’t think this change is necessary.  

[Alaskan_Son]

10 minutes ago, Joe_Carrick said:

I would actually love to have some framing options for openings:

• Option to move header up to plates if < 1.5" (no cripples)
• Option to add plates or increase header size automatically up to 4"
• Option to move/reduce the top of opening to maintain minimum header size.

 

[DRAWZILLA]

one thing I have noticed is that when drawing the as built with an (e) in the header label everything s ok, then when I save the existing and draw the new plan and change the header label to (n) for new windows and doors, all the header labels change in the entire plan. this just isn't how the door and window labels work. Please make the header labels work just like door and window labels do. Submitted.

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

29 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said:

one thing I have noticed is that when drawing the as built with an (e) in the header label everything s ok, then when I save the existing and draw the new plan and change the header label to (n) for new windows and doors, all the header labels change in the entire plan. this just isn't how the door and window labels work. Please make the header labels work just like door and window labels do. Submitted.

 

 

 

Before you start drawing your new plan, group select all your windows/doors and on the Framing tab right next to the Header Label, uncheck Default.  With Default checked, it will continue to use whatever you assign to the Default label.  Either that or (depending on the situation) check Retain Wall Framing for the appropriate walls.  I might even do both in many circumstances. 

[DRAWZILLA]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Before you start drawing your new plan, group select all your windows/doors and on the Framing tab right next to the Header Label, uncheck Default.  With Default checked, it will continue to use whatever you assign to the Default label.  Either that or (depending on the situation) check Retain Wall Framing for the appropriate walls.  I might even do both in many circumstances. 

I never have the default checked and it still will not work like the window and door labels. I use a macro in the label (nominal size)

[Alaskan_Son]

42 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said:

I never have the default checked

If you don't have the default checked then where do you "change the header label to (n) for new windows and doors"?

 

 

[DRAWZILLA]

17 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

If you don't have the default checked then where do you "change the header label to (n) for new windows and doors"?

 

 

For windows and doors I change the label itself--- for headers I change the header label  under framing but when I do it changes all the existing header labels to new.

[Alaskan_Son]

20 hours ago, DRAWZILLA said:

for headers I change the header label  under framing but when I do it changes all the existing header labels to new.

 

It should only be working this way if you are changing it in your Door and Window Defaults.  You have to uncheck "Default" at that location to even enter a new default label, BUT your individual door and windows also have a default checkbox.  Maybe try reading this again...

 

22 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Before you start drawing your new plan, group select all your windows/doors and on the Framing tab right next to the Header Label, uncheck Default.

 

I'm not talking about group selecting your default settings.  I'm talking about group selecting your actual doors and windows...

 

[DRAWZILLA]

Thanks Michael, but I've been doing this for 15 years, it didn't work in X11 . . Headers are fairly new but it would be nice if they worked like typ window and door labels.. just saying that if the header labels stayed (e) when I change the default header label to (n) like window and door labels do and always have. I guess what I'm trying to do is have the header labels non-dynamic so only new windows and doors put into the plan will have the (n) assigned to them. I realize I can select and change the label s but with a lot of new and old labels in the plan, it could take some time to do.. I also change the schedule not to include the existing windows and doors...

[Alaskan_Son]

30 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said:

Thanks Michael, but I've been doing this for 15 years, it didn't work in X11 or in X12.

 

Sorry I tried to help then I guess.  I'll try to remember in the future and just pass on by.

 

For anyone else though that thinks it doesn't work, it does work.  It just works differently than you might expect and in a less efficient manner for certain operations.  You just have to know what's happening.  I suggested way back in X10 that Chief should change the way that Default checkbox is set up because it can be very confusing.  As it is right now, the ONLY way to get a Header Label to disconnect from the Header Label Defaults is to manually uncheck that Default checkbox after the window or door has been placed in the plan.  In the example Perry posed above, this would be right when you're done drawing the As-Built and just before you move on to the New (or Proposed).  This can be as simple as group selecting all the windows and doors and unchecking the box, but this step really shouldn't be necessary. 

 

That being said, the way Header Labels work actually also carries with it some pretty cool capabilities that other labels don't.  That is, it provides for a dynamic custom labels that can affect any/all previously placed objects whereas other objects' labels only affect future objects.  It would really be great if we had this capability for ALL labels.  There just needs to be a way to set this behavior up at the Default level though.

 

 

[DRAWZILLA]

6 minutes ago, solver said:

I think that when Chief builds framing, the windows take on the current default label.

I think you are correct b/c I notice the default automatically checking itself for headers, must have something to do with auto wall framing on. The window labels will always stick to new or existing even with auto wall framing on. looks like a bug to me or turn auto wall framing off, but I don't like to turn it off, that causes other problems, especially when designing. not sure how to handle this

[Joe_Carrick]

The reality is that the Headers are "framing members" and are not really coordinated with the Doors and Windows.  Only by using the Door and Window Labels in conjunction with a macro that recognizes the layer_set can you get a label that isn't effected by the automatic framing.

[Electromen]

Box Headers are part of the X12 Upgrade.  Yes it changes the framing as you describe.

[Alaskan_Son]

On 12/29/2019 at 11:36 AM, solver said:

I think that when Chief builds framing, the windows take on the current default label.

Ya, I tried (apparently in vain) to point that out multiple times and in pretty extensive detail in my posts above.  There are Header Label Defaults and Header Labels for individual doors and windows.  There is a Default checkbox in both of those dialogs but they do 2 totally different things.  At the Default level, it seems to do nothing other than tell Chief to use the built in Header Label Defaults.  At the individual object level it tells Chief to use the Header Label Defaults.  Again, currently the only way to disconnect the individual door and window headers from those Header Label Defaults is to group select them and uncheck the Default checkbox.  
 

Like I said, I told Chief early on that this was confusing and I might be missing something, but the more I think about it, the more I think that the Default checkbox at the Default level is not only confusing but just plain unnecessary.  I’m guessing they just haven’t heard from very many other users on the matter.  
 

To be honest, I don’t use those header labels for a whole slew of other reasons including...

-No height attribute

-No way to move the label and leave auto framing toggled on

-No way to pull other vital information from the Parent Object (individual Window or Door) forcing us to modify 2 labels instead of just one (change window to “(N)” and then change header to “(N)” for example).

 

...so, like Joe mentioned—still just using custom window and door labels for all of it.  

[Dermot]

You can have window headers using multiple header label formats.  It's actually pretty easy to do, but I would also have to agree with Michael that it can be rather confusing.

 

See attached picture and plan.  Just open each window and the window defaults and look at the differences in the Header Label settings.

 

 

header labels.plan

[DRAWZILLA]

so Dermot, what you show doesn't work for me as I need the nominal size not the automatic label in all labels new and existing.

[DRAWZILLA]

6 minutes ago, solver said:

 

Isn't that what is showing?

 

What do you need that is different?

no, what Dermot shows is the hardwired automatic label . What shows is to much info for the plan view. I just want   "4x6 hdr and what type of lumber PSL--LVL . I know you can create a label to show that but not the default and non-default labels at the same time and of course new and existing.

[GeneDavis]

Why would an asbuilt need to show header info?