Richard_Morrison Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, michaelgia said: I watch this video every once in a while. I don't mean to belittle your complaint/question but it's just a procedural thing you have to understand with Chief and how it handles floor levels. Programs like Archicad handle floor levels by making you build slabs after the walls are drawn and then having you cut those slabs into smaller slabs which can be easily lowered or raised, BUT, then you have the messy job of going around and adjusting wall heights, ceilings and roofs. Then once you get that straight you still have to contend with trimming, floor material, wall finishes etc... Trust me, you don't want that. Just learn Chief's floor level paradigm. It's much more efficient in the end, albeit counter-intuitive. Michael, This WAS a good video, but floors no longer work this way. If you watch the video at about 9:00, the discussion about stem wall heights show that you can't reduce the stem wall past the basement floor. This was fine. Now, stem wall heights move the floors, too. I don't know how long it's been since you've used ArchiCAD, but I've been using it continuously since the late 1990's (as I have with Chief), and it works NOTHING like you describe. Trust me, I DO want to work the way that ArchiCAD actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, michaelgia said: .......... Programs like Archicad handle floor levels by making you build slabs after the walls are drawn and then having you cut those slabs into smaller slabs which can be easily lowered or raised, BUT, then you have the messy job of going around and adjusting wall heights, ceilings and roofs. Then once you get that straight you still have to contend with trimming, floor material, wall finishes etc... Trust me, you don't want that. Just learn Chief's floor level paradigm. It's much more efficient in the end, albeit counter-intuitive. This is such a great comment on the CA method. The CA method may be confusing, but it could be a lot worse. Great post MichaelGia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, dshall said: The CA method may be confusing, but it could be a lot worse. and conversely it could be SO much better as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 39 minutes ago, Richard_Morrison said: ....... If you watch the video at about 9:00, the discussion about stem wall heights show that you can't reduce the stem wall past the basement floor. This was fine. Now, stem wall heights move the floors, too....... I disagree with this statement, Here is a vid, a pretty good vid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 It would also help if, when you lose room definition for some time, not sure how long that is., the room wouldn't revert back to the default once set to other than default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Scott, I appreciate you doing the video, but I guess I wasn't very clear on my point. A slab floor can "push down" a footing (increase the stem wall height) or can be raised and leave the stem wall in place. Nothing has changed there. BUT, if you decrease the stem wall height to less than the slab height -- NOW -- it will bring the floor slab with it. It didn't used to. This is the problem. If you watch Dan's video, he sets the stem wall height to 0", but the footing only goes up as far as the slab - leaving the slab in place at the original elevation. Now -- setting the stem wall to 0" totally messes up the floor height. Hope that's more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, Richard_Morrison said: Scott, I appreciate you doing the video, but I guess I wasn't very clear on my point. A slab floor can "push down" a footing (increase the stem wall height) or can be raised and leave the stem wall in place. Nothing has changed there. BUT, if you decrease the stem wall height to less than the slab height -- NOW -- it will bring the floor slab with it. It didn't used to. This is the problem. If you watch Dan's video, he sets the stem wall height to 0", but the footing only goes up as far as the slab - leaving the slab in place at the original elevation. Now -- setting the stem wall to 0" totally messes up the floor height. Hope that's more clear. So I was wrong, you did not misspeak, you do want the slab below the bottom of the footing. Correct? If this is so, then I agree you cannot have the slab lower than the footing....... without a work around. But, when would you ever want the slab below the footing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 15 minutes ago, Richard_Morrison said: Scott, I appreciate you doing the video, but I guess I wasn't very clear on my point. A slab floor can "push down" a footing (increase the stem wall height) or can be raised and leave the stem wall in place. Nothing has changed there. BUT, if you decrease the stem wall height to less than the slab height -- NOW -- it will bring the floor slab with it. It didn't used to. This is the problem. If you watch Dan's video, he sets the stem wall height to 0", but the footing only goes up as far as the slab - leaving the slab in place at the original elevation. Now -- setting the stem wall to 0" totally messes up the floor height. Hope that's more clear. That was a good catch Richard. Didn't know Chief changed this in X8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I always have a floor in the crawlspace, but it is really a dirt texture 1/16" thick, so I can adjust it like Scott shows. Don't do many full basements. Looks good in sections and 3d also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 17 minutes ago, HumbleChief said: That was a good catch Richard. Didn't know Chief changed this in X8. Did you test it out to find out if they did change it? I do not think they changed the way it works. If the point is you can now define the slab as being lower than the stem wall, please show me how you can do it, please post a plan showing the slab lower than the stem wall. And finally why would you want the slab lower than the stem wall footing? I sure wish we could get on the same page in regards to what we are discussing. It's like putting my finger on a piece of mercury, it keeps moving..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 27 minutes ago, dshall said: So I was wrong, you did not misspeak, you do want the slab below the bottom of the footing. Correct? If this is so, then I agree you cannot have the slab lower than the footing....... without a work around. But, when would you ever want the slab below the footing? Richard is correct regarding setting the basement floor to zero...it now moves the slab up. The footing always remains below the floor. In previous versions of CA...as per Dan's video...if you set the stem wall height to zero...it would only move the footing to the underside of the floor. CA would lock the location of the basement floor in regards to the stem wall height. But now, in the current version of CA...the stem wall height actually moves the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenoeightspot Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Last summer I had a client that wanted the basement slab dropped 18". I used another foundation wall on the inside , dropped the wall top to match the existing footing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, SNestor said: Richard is correct regarding setting the basement floor to zero...it now moves the slab up. The footing always remains below the floor. In previous versions of CA...as per Dan's video...if you set the stem wall height to zero...it would only move the footing to the underside of the floor. CA would lock the location of the basement floor in regards to the stem wall height. But now, in the current version of CA...the stem wall height actually moves the floor. I think I agree with you. I thought we were talking about building the slab below the footing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNestor Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Just now, dshall said: I think I agree with you. I thought we were talking about building the slab below the footing. I think Richard's point was that when Dan made the video...you could enter a "zero" for the stem wall height...and the stem wall would only move to the bottom of the floor. It would not move the floor. Well...now it does move the floor. I wonder why they changed this? So...with the current version of CA...you can move the floor by setting a height for the floor...and you can move the floor by moving the stem wall. It is a bit confusing...but, not the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, Kenoeightspot said: Last summer I had a client that wanted the basement slab dropped 18". I used a "room Divider" wall on the inside then added the foundation walls manually, dropped the wall top to match the existing footing. This is interesting..... your use of the word "MANUALLY" explains how you were able to do what you did. What you did is essential come back 20 years after the house was built and DEEPEN the crawl space floor and put in some retaining walls inside of the existing perimeter footings. I understand the premise, I am not sure if I would of built it the way you did..... not saying your method is wrong.... but I think I would of built it differently..... you used a "room divider" wall on the inside..... I wonder if that wall could of actually been a wall.......... your method was probably quicker and easier....... hmmmmmmm.... if I were to substitute a wall for your "room divider" wall, I suppose I would of needed to use a PONY WALL with the top half of the wall as some kind of invisible wall ....... I know, I am overthinking...... it sounds like you got it figured out much quicker than I would..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, SNestor said: I think Richard's point was that when Dan made the video...you could enter a "zero" for the stem wall height...and the stem wall would only move to the bottom of the floor. It would not move the floor. Well...now it does move the floor. I wonder why they changed this? ...... got it, thanks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelgia Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 ....the good old days when you could set the Stemwall height to "0" instead of trying to calculate its height to get it to snap to the underside of the slab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, michaelgia said: ....the good old days when you could set the Stemwall height to "0" instead of trying to calculate its height to get it to snap to the underside of the slab. ...would that be a good check box addition to the he!! box - oh wait - I mean the structure dbx - "snap to underside of current slab" ?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I never had any trouble with any of these issues My partner Joe was always able to figure it out Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Was playing this morning and Chief X8 also does not behave like the version Dan was using (X2 - didn't realize the version for the video was so old) in another way. At 4:50 Dan shows all the new rooms reverting back to default and only one room remaining with the proper settings. X8 no longer behaves this way. All new rooms are set to the height set in the original room. No need to match properties any longer. MUCH needed and welcomed change. Something I was unaware of through the many iterations of Chief over the years. Another small note - even though the stem wall height WILL now drive the concrete floor up when set to '0' (unlike in Dan's old video) if the ceiling height (which is also '0' now) is simply set back to its default the slab/floor will drive the footing back down, tucked neatly under the slab without doing any (simple) calculation to get the slab/footing in the proper location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneDavis Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Dan of Chief Experts has a good video tutorial about platforms, and he leads it off by saying something very important. A platform is not just a floor structure. It includes the ceiling above it. His remark about the floor elevation line in the spec dialog box, when doing foundation "platforms" is interesting. He thinks Chief should delete it or blank it for specification, and I agree. His advice that one should resolve all the platforms correctly in a design, before doing anything else, is well-taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 12/30/2016 at 8:02 AM, dshall said: I doubt I will get it, but I hope someone says "yeah, I get it, the floor should control the ceiling below" While moving the floor down should logically push down the ceiling below, the corollary is not true. If I have a consistent 2nd floor height, and I want to lower the first floor laundry room ceiling height down by 6", say, it will bring some or all of the second floor down with it. (And it's hard to predict how much of the second floor will come down.) I seldom want to do this. I want a false ceiling in that one room. Floors may be able to control ceilings as far as calculating a new ceiling height, but ceiling heights should NEVER control/override floor heights. Saying, "Well, you just need to know how Chief handles floor heights" is not a good answer. I KNOW how Chief handles floor heights, and it is non-intuitive, illogical, and in some cases, just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Thanks for keeping this topic alive Richard as I still have so much to learn about how Chief works especially re: the structure dbx. Didn't really know that changing the ceiling height of a lower floor room would drive parts of the upper floor down. Long, boring, video with some of the confusion I still have with the structure dbx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glennw Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Following on from the other thread that covers this topic. https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/12444-how-to-drop-a-single-rooms-ceiling-height-two-story-building/?page=2#comment-107039 In the lower floor room where you want to have the drop ceiling, you need to use the Ceiling Finish settings (with a framing layer and NOT the Ceiling Structure settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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