Kitchen electrical must read

[ACADuser]

One out of 1000 have an adverse reaction to Pfizer vaccine for COVID & they are still pushing it.

There seems to be no standard threshold for risk.

 

 

[KTransue]

4 hours ago, Larry_Sweeney said:

You forgot to divide that ".004%" over a 30 year period!  

Oh my God!  I didn’t notice that!  I stand corrected ... So, then, 162 per year!  162!  That’s .00002%!

[Gawdzira]

This thread has valuable information for us as designers. One more political comment and I am deleting this thread.

Edit- Non code related politics. 

[Rich_Winsor]

[Alaskan_Son]

1 hour ago, Gawdzira said:

This thread has valuable information for us as designers. One more political comment and I am deleting this thread.

 

Code requirements are political.  How do you think they're written, maintained, mandated, and enforced?  And how do you think us as builders and designers get them amended when necessary?

 

By the way, I found this one statement at the end of the article a little funny:

Quote

In conclusion, it is important for homeowners and contractors to be aware of the NEC regulations surrounding kitchen island outlets, as failure to comply with these regulations can result in serious safety hazards.

 

Failure to comply can result in serious safety hazards.  Is it only a serious safety hazard when its a code requirement?  Was it not a serious safety hazard when you installed that same outlet on the side of the island last week?  Kinda scary to think you just walked away from a serious safety hazard and just left it that way. 

[Alaskan_Son]

I seriously want to try and do something about this and would encourage others to do the same if you agree.  Many of the islands we design are barely big enough to be used as a functional island as it is without introducing an outlet (and resulting obstruction) to the surface.  They're foolishly introducing a whole new and entirely untested risk by putting wires up on the work surface of every new island.

 

On a personal note, it will also make me sad not to be able to use these outlet strips anymore.  I absolutely love having them available to quickly plug small countertop appliances into and out clients love them too:

[JKEdmo]

Having a pop-out outlet in lieu of a side mount unit does not seem like a big deal to me in the grand scheme of things.

 

I thought about the difference in electrical codes during a recent visit to England and Scotland.  First reaction was they have the most overbuilt outlets and appliance cords.  Just like battleships, or maybe dreadnoughts is the better term.  But, my impression is they are very proud of their electrical safety standards and probably think our standards are lacking.  Also noticed that they are very restrictive in bathroom electrical outlets only allowing small electric razor outlet.

[DrawingABlank]

Just discussed this today with electrician... clearances needed for his preferred device are beyond actual pop-up receptacle dimensions.

Might need to include a bit more related info on cab drawings until everyone is more aware of clearances etc.

[Gawdzira]

@Alaskan_Son I always appreciate your valuable input and opinions on this site. The politics of the building code and it's application are completely welcomed by me and they add value to the discussion. 

[Gawdzira]

Mockett is water tight when open.  

 

"The water tight seal prevents liquids from getting inside the unit and protects the unit in both the open and closed position with an internal gasket protecting the electrical outlet components and an external gasket providing a seal between the receptacle flange and the kitchen countertop."

 

14 plus inches clear below. That's a lot of inches

[Kbird1]

15 minutes ago, JKEdmo said:

electrical codes during a recent visit to England and Scotland

 

Power is all 240v there AFAIK, which will easily kill you unlike 110v which may or may not, if a hazard is touched.... hence heavier duty wiring etc.

Might also be about the age of the places stayed in too? ie the Razor only outlet , I do seem to remember those but haven't been there in many years now.

 

M.

[Alaskan_Son]

I've used this type in the past and was actually super happy with it.  Doesn't hardly require any special modifications to the cabinetry either.  Mostly you just need to know that its going to cut the usable space down just a bit:

[CharlesVolz]

Those newly required countertop outlets are great! Now I don't have to bend over to plug in my vacuum cleaner! 

[KTransue]

6 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

That's 323 people a year or roughly 1 out of a million people.  If that seems unreasonable to you that maybe you're a heartless monster.

Anyone hurt is too many, thus the reason for the codes in the first place.  But, “you can’t save people from themselves” … Just gotta play the odds.  And, based on the number of lottery tickets sold every week, 1 out of million may sound like a pretty good chance, but really we’re talking about .0001 percent of the population.  The degree of “hurt” wasn’t clear, though they did end up with a hospital visit.  I wonder, though, how many other injuries in the home also resulted in hospital visits.  My guess is that this very small percentage is an even smaller percentage when compared with all the other things that could happen in a home.  What might be next on the chopping block?  Fireplaces?  Stoves?  Staircases?  Tubs?  Showers?  There’s a point of reason here, and they’ve clearly exceeded it.

 

I’ll climb down now off the soapbox.  Thanks for allowing me to stand there for a minute.

[KTransue]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

I seriously want to try and do something about this and would encourage others to do the same if you agree.

Electrical manufacturers don’t advertise, so when they want to sell a bazillion of their product they just come out with something (like pop up outlets) and work to get them mandated into the code. 

 

FYI … The NEC is revised by the "National Fire Protection Association’s Committee on the National Electrical Code". The organization is composed of 18 code-making panels (CMP) with IEC representatives on each panel as well as manufacturers, inspectors, users, installers, labor, consumers, testing labs, and special experts.

If you really do want to see this change, there is a process … but it may take a while.  In the mean time, the NEC is designed to be adopted by local and/or state governmental bodies. Local jurisdictions may choose to adopt the code in its entirety, with specific additions or exceptions, or they may choose not to adopt the code at all.  Your best hope (any of you) is to contact your local jurisdiction and argue the ridiculousness of this code change before it gets adopted in your area.

[mtldesigns]

Just curious, how many have tripped over a cord when plugged into a wall?  The dogs do every time the vacuum gets turned on.  

 

I wonder how this affects houses already in the build process? 

[evergreen]

Ah, let's call the whole thing off...Cordless lawn equipment, tons of cordless power tools, oh yeah, cars and trucks...

I'm sure more will come to the kitchen too...

[Greg_NY61]

NJ still on NEC 2020

[KTransue]

Just received an email from my electrician who forwarded a write up in Electrical Contractor magazine (www.ECMag.com) addressing this issue.  The last paragraph of that article suggests that “One interesting solution is to raise the counter height for seating on one side.  This creates a vertical area in the countertop for receptacle outlet placement”.  So, basically, the same thing that has been done since the 1980’s … that every designer is trying to get rid of.  LOL.

 

[richoffan]

Say what?! I did not get that memo!!

Adl1.pdf Adl2.pdf Adl4.pdf Adl3.pdf

[Alaskan_Son]

6 hours ago, KTransue said:

Just received an email from my electrician who forwarded a write up in Electrical Contractor magazine (www.ECMag.com) addressing this issue.  The last paragraph of that article suggests that “One interesting solution is to raise the counter height for seating on one side.  This creates a vertical area in the countertop for receptacle outlet placement”.  So, basically, the same thing that has been done since the 1980’s … that every designer is trying to get rid of.  LOL.

 

 

58 minutes ago, richoffan said:

Say what?! I did not get that memo!!

Adl1.pdf 1.12 MB · 4 downloads Adl2.pdf 1.11 MB · 5 downloads Adl4.pdf 1.08 MB · 5 downloads Adl3.pdf 1.1 MB · 5 downloads

 

You guys got me thinking.  When does that upper bar become a work surface that needs its own outlet?  And at what point does the outlet below that work surface violate code?

 

[richoffan]

Good point (as usual)  Personally FWIW I think this will go the way of he door alarms when the structure forms an integral part of the barrier surrounding swimming pools....Common sense and the realization that nothing is fool proof cause fools are too ingenious will win out

[KTransue]

2 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

When does that upper bar become a work surface that needs its own outlet?  And at what point does the outlet below that work surface violate code?

Well, that’s interesting. Because there’s no ”cabinet” directly below it, it probably is considered an “upper counter”, “elbow bar”, or “breakfast bar”, so it probably gets a gimme. But, because those same forward thinking code teams that approved a change to prevent .0002% of the people from hurting themselves might not realize that a cord is long enough to hang off either way, it might fail. I hate your kitchen design, by the way. Too many counters.  Lol.