Tricky access to roof for Coach House Design

[Doug_N]

I have a project where I have to put a guard rail around a roof, and an access doghouse for access stairs 

 

Railings have to go where the red lines are, and the railing has to be 42" above the roof deck.

 

Suggestions??   This one has me perplexed.

 

Untitled 2.zip

[DzinEye]

 

1 hour ago, Doug_N said:

 

Suggestions??   This one has me perplexed.

Well... is the question how to model it to look right, or how to actually build it?  Granted, for many chief users this is one in the same, but certainly not always for me.   Quickly to model it, note that the bottom of the rail as you have it is at the ceiling level... so just add to the height of the railing wall the height of the roof structure thickness, then you can even raise the bottom rail that thickness.   This may actually even represent how it would be built, if you don't mind tearing up roof to fasten the deck posts to the roof joists.

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, Doug_N said:

Suggestions??   This one has me perplexed

 

Use a 3rd Floor, Roof and flat Ceiling Off,  exterior walls become the 42" railings, make Floor Finish black asphalt etc

 

basically how Chief suggests you do a flat Parapet Roof.

 

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/article/KB-00295/creating-a-flat-parapet-roof.html

[Doug_N]

1 hour ago, DzinEye said:

 

Well... is the question how to model it to look right, or how to actually build it?  Granted, for many chief users this is one in the same, but certainly not always for me.   Quickly to model it, note that the bottom of the rail as you have it is at the ceiling level... so just add to the height of the railing wall the height of the roof structure thickness, then you can even raise the bottom rail that thickness.   This may actually even represent how it would be built, if you don't mind tearing up roof to fasten the deck posts to the roof joists.

I know how to build it, but the trick is to model this in a way that I can do a reasonable visual facsimile and generate construction drawings.  The roof must have a shallow pitch, and the intent is to make this a green roof with a planted surface.   It is not intended to be a patio.

[DzinEye]

1 hour ago, Doug_N said:

I know how to build it, but the trick is to model this in a way that I can do a reasonable visual facsimile and generate construction drawings

Ok.  I figured you did at first, but then began wondering if you might need to avoid posts going through the roof surface.

The way I mention will work...as will Mick's, though the rail will be right at the outer edge with that method.

[Doug_N]

1 hour ago, DzinEye said:

Ok.  I figured you did at first, but then began wondering if you might need to avoid posts going through the roof surface.

The way I mention will work...as will Mick's, though the rail will be right at the outer edge with that method.

Mick's doesn't work because I can't have parapets around the roof, and the roof must slope.

[Doug_N]

Thanks Eric, 

 

I am just on my way to bed, but I will take a peak in the morning.

 

Doug

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, Doug_N said:

Mick's doesn't work because I can't have parapets around the roof, and the roof must slope.

 

You can make the Railing any Railing type you want, it doesn't need to be solid as in the example by CA,

it can even be a pony wall and it doesn't need to be around the Perimeter of the building either.

( similar to what Eric is showing I think they can be pulled in)

 

Chief doesn't do Sloped Floors , but that can be fixed in a Section View >CAD Detail .....

or for the more adventurous put a manual roof plane inside the "parapet walls" .

 

Or post the plan , so those with time can have a "play"

 

M.

[glennw]

I assume that the railing would be horizontal, not matching the roof slope.

You should be able to draw some railings on the attic level which will build above the roof.

You will probably get a warning message but just ignore it.

If you need to adjust heights, you can do it in elevation.

Although, you can adjust the top height in any view by dragging it.

To drag the bottom up, select the railing in an elevation view.

Change it to a non railing wall, drag the bottom up, change it back to a railing.

With this one, I didn't change the bottom height - I increased the bottom rail height to lift it out of the roof.

 

[tommy1]

Doug, I did this railing over a roof about 5 years ago using solids (actually, I think I used slabs) and molding polylines.

[Doug_N]

6 hours ago, glennw said:

I assume that the railing would be horizontal, not matching the roof slope.

You should be able to draw some railings on the attic level which will build above the roof.

You will probably get a warning message but just ignore it.

If you need to adjust heights, you can do it in elevation.

Although, you can adjust the top height in any view by dragging it.

To drag the bottom up, select the railing in an elevation view.

Change it to a non railing wall, drag the bottom up, change it back to a railing.

With this one, I didn't change the bottom height - I increased the bottom rail height to lift it out of the roof.

 

Glen,

 

If you build walls at the attic level they cut through the roof plane?   

[HumbleChief]

Let me know if this helps. I THINK what I did was add another floor that the roof lives on then used Glenn's suggestion of adding a railing on the attic level, changing that railing to a wall, raising it up, then back to a railing wall with a "Raise Bottom" to clear the roof below, the adjusting height again. Apologies as I could not really duplicate what I did and it's an X13 plan so hopefully it will help somewhat and hopefully it's what you are looking for. 

 

Tried it in X12 and could not get it to work again, so maybe not so much help...

 

 

562403700_GREENROOF1.plan

[Alaskan_Son]

Here's my advice in a nutshell (just the basics and leaving out all the various options and power tips):

1. Get some basic roof elevation information.
2. Open a blank plan and generate a quick terrain based on that roof info.
3. Copy/paste hold position the required roof shape into your new terrain plan.
4. Draw railing to the desired roof shape on your terrain using a No Room Definition Railing Wall set to Follow Terrain.
5. Open a 3D view in your terrain plan, turn the terrain off, and Convert the railings to a symbol.
6. Place the railing symbol into your original plan and position it where it goes.

[Doug_N]

1 minute ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Here's my advice in a nutshell (just the basics and leaving out all the various options and power tips):

1. Get some basic roof elevation information.
2. Open a blank plan and generate a quick terrain based on that roof info.
3. Copy/paste hold position the required roof shape into your new terrain plan.
4. Draw railing to the desired roof shape on your terrain using a No Room Definition Railing Wall set to Follow Terrain.
5. Open a 3D view in your terrain plan, turn the terrain off, and Convert the railings to a symbol.
6. Place the railing symbol into your original plan and position it where it goes.

 

Wow Michael, that is really counter intuitive and strangely brilliant.   I will let you know how it goes.

 

Doug

[HumbleChief]

Hi Doug,

 

I wonder if you might extend a small courtesy and let me know if the picture attached is not what you are looking for. If not, again please let me know and I'll stop trying to help or perhaps you can explain a little better what you are looking for? Best of luck either way.

 

 

[glennw]

17 hours ago, Doug_N said:

If you build walls at the attic level they cut through the roof plane?

If you build walls in the attic level, they will not build through the roof plane - they will build from top of ceiling joists of the floor below up to underside of the roof plane.

If you build railings in the attic level, they will build up from top of ceiling joists of the floor below through the roof plane.

[glennw]

17 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

Tried it in X12 and could not get it to work again, so maybe not so much help...

Larry, you don't need a second floor.

You can drag the top of a railing up or down in any view type.

You cannot drag the bottom of a railing up in any view type.

Hence, you need to convert the railing to a wall, drag the bottom up or down and then convert the wall back to a railing.

[HumbleChief]

Thanks for the great tip as always Glenn. Perhaps it will help the OP as well.

[Doug_N]

Hi Glen, and to everyone else.  My mistake, I thought that I had uploaded the plan file, but as it turns out the file failed to upload because it was too big.  I should have noticed that.

 

10 hours ago, glennw said:

Larry, you don't need a second floor.

You can drag the top of a railing up or down in any view type.

You cannot drag the bottom of a railing up in any view type.

Hence, you need to convert the railing to a wall, drag the bottom up or down and then convert the wall back to a railing.

Glen,

 

Yes!   This is exactly what I am trying to do, but if you notice in your cross section there is a horizontal construction.  I can build the railing on a curb that matches the roof on the bottom but has a horizontal flat section so that it tapers, but I can't have a horizontal section under the roof.

 

Doug

[Doug_N]

General note,

The ceiling is cathedral with the rafters being engineered wood I beams, called TJIs by one manufacturer.  

[Doug_N]

15 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

Hi Doug,

 

I wonder if you might extend a small courtesy and let me know if the picture attached is not what you are looking for. If not, again please let me know and I'll stop trying to help or perhaps you can explain a little better what you are looking for? Best of luck either way.

 

 

Hi Larry, Yes that more or less represents the concept.  I have included my actual plan in the original post.

[Doug_N]

 

Ok so I am getting close to what I need but wow was this difficult to do.

[robdyck]

1 hour ago, Doug_N said:

 

Ok so I am getting close to what I need but wow was this difficult to do.

It's really quite simple. Use a ramp. Put it on a layer that will NOT display in 3d views. Adjust ramp slope to match slope and elevation of roof. Draw railing set to No Room Def and Follow Stairs. Done.

[Doug_N]

Got to admit it, the ramp trick worked really well.  Thanks Rob!

[VHampton]

It appears that you have some excellent answers Doug.

 

For two story houses with a roof deck, I often build a third floor, and then flat roof the entire area except for where the decking and rails will go.