Thick wall connections broken

[BenPalmer]

about a year ago, with an X12 updates, thick wall connections (anything over 8" thick) became unstable...especially when 3 walls intersect.

 

I'm attaching an X12 plan that demonstrates several issues I'm having.  Curious if others see the same behavior.  notes within the plan describing the behaviors

 

I realize that layered walls will likely fix much of this but I do not like layered walls....they have a whole set of issues that I don't want to get into the pros and cons.  again, this worked fine before, but broke with an X12 update and is still broken in X13 beta.

 

Appreciate everyone's input.

wallConnectionProblems.plan

[BenPalmer]

@solver really appreciate you taking the time to look at this....you perfectly demonstrate how much effort it takes to correct these problems.  I intentionally left the walls broken so everyone could see the issue.  I go and fix them exactly as you do, but throughout the design process they just break again.  Room definitions are lost, time is taken to fix over and over and plans sometimes go out with wrong definitions...unprofessional.  I need them to stay connected!

 

I actually sent this plan into chief over a year ago and they acknowledged the problem and tell me it is on there list to get it taken care of.  In hopes that X13 would be the fix, it wasn't.  I sent it in again and got the same answer.  On our list.

 

It's especially frustrating when it worked before, and has always worked since I've been using the software (Chief 8) and there update broke it and they won't fix it.  I've been a long time use of Chief, former beta tester and rarely use support, and this is a big reason why I don't.  No purpose in using support if they won't support us.  Doesn't seem like it would be hard to fix something they broke??

 

Again, thanks for sharing the video so others can see it without needing to open the file.

[GordonRay]

We are having the same problem. When you have a thick wall to narrow wall connection, if the thick wall is over double the width of the narrow wall, the wall connection comes detached and you loosed room definitions. Any way to solve this problem?
Thanks.

[robdyck]

3 hours ago, GordonRay said:

We are having the same problem. When you have a thick wall to narrow wall connection, if the thick wall is over double the width of the narrow wall, the wall connection comes detached and you loosed room definitions. Any way to solve this problem?
Thanks.

You'd need to post a plan so we know exactly what wall types are giving you the problem. Keep in mind that Chief would like an interior and an exterior layer.

[BenPalmer]

@robdyck Please see original post...a plan demonstrating the issue was posted.  Also, while I realize chief prefers layers, I've been doing it without layers since Chief 8...been working fine for over 20 years until an X12, mid-cycle update broke it. 

[mtldesigns]

3 hours ago, robdyck said:

Keep in mind that Chief would like an interior and an exterior layer.

I never had "the honor" of doing thick walls before X12, so I really don't know how they functioned.  I just assumed creating a wall type the way it will be built as Robert mentioned was the way to go, and it seems to work, even when intersecting other "standard" wall thicknesses.  No problem on getting the room defs either.

[robdyck]

12 hours ago, BenPalmer said:

@robdyck Please see original post...a plan demonstrating the issue was posted.  Also, while I realize chief prefers layers, I've been doing it without layers since Chief 8...been working fine for over 20 years until an X12, mid-cycle update broke it. 

Are you Jimmy Ray, I mean GordonRay as well? I was obviously responding to a different user. For all we know, this user may have their walls setup differently than yours. The point was that if a plan is posted...not yours, but GordonRay's, then we could investigate a bit further. And the comment about layers was simply a reminder that using wall layers, if possible, may help solve the problem. I never suggested or intimated that you or anyone else was doing something incorrectly. So unless you are BenPalmer and GordonRay, then only you posted a plan which identified the problem. GordonRay did not.

[Archnot-Boltz]

15 hours ago, BenPalmer said:

@robdyck Please see original post...a plan demonstrating the issue was posted.  Also, while I realize chief prefers layers, I've been doing it without layers since Chief 8...been working fine for over 20 years until an X12, mid-cycle update broke it. 

Hey Ben,

I feel your pain. I used two layer walls (framing layer & ext. sheathing layer) for many years starting with Chief '97 because of dimensioning issues with Chief dimensioning to the vinyl siding layer.

 

During that period (when the soffit tool was the do all 3d workhorse workaround!), I would assign drywall as the framing layer material and siding as the exterior sheathing layer material in order to have my 3d model look "correct" for renderings and elevation views. Worked fine until I got tired of this limiting work a round and started wrastling with wall layers and the frequent manual dimension snap error that I would miss and have my drawings thrown off by a 1/2" (even worse if I forgot to change the size of my 7/16" OSB sheathing to 1/2").

 

Always had issues on Remods of old buildings with 20" plus stone foundation walls. The simplest fix for Chief would be to, BY Default, have the interior walls stop (automatically snap) at the inner layer of the exterior walls. Also, in lieu of the Wall Layer Adjustment Tool (which has greatly improved wall connection edits but can still be a frustrating PITA), would be for Chief to Stop Auto Snapping Once a wall has been drawn and give us Snap Points to All of the walls Layers without being crippled by that damn "Main Layer" setting. 

 

Also, regarding errant dimensions, I've suggested, requested, whined to phone support that Each Wall Layer Should have a Separate Toggle to "DO NOT LOCATE W/ DIMENSION SNAP-PLEASE!".

 

Amazing that your Real World Daily Issue that envolves and effects your ability to create accurate and efficient creation of design drawings has been Once Again, Trumped (not the "ex" Pres) by Rendering and Kitchen Design Tools in X13. Let the brow-beating begin!-BB

 

Oh, and thanks to Eric for another excellent video illustration.

[BenPalmer]

3 hours ago, robdyck said:

Are you Jimmy Ray, I mean GordonRay as well? I was obviously responding to a different user. For all we know, this user may have their walls setup differently than yours. The point was that if a plan is posted...not yours, but GordonRay's, then we could investigate a bit further. And the comment about layers was simply a reminder that using wall layers, if possible, may help solve the problem. I never suggested or intimated that you or anyone else was doing something incorrectly. So unless you are BenPalmer and GordonRay, then only you posted a plan which identified the problem. GordonRay did not.

My mistake Robert, I should have clarified that I chatted with Gordon Ray offline and he uses the exact same method, so the plan I posted represents their situation as well.  Hope that clarifies.   

 

Curious if you have any input or suggestion on the plan I posted for investigation? 

[robdyck]

1 hour ago, BenPalmer said:

My mistake Robert, I should have clarified that I chatted with Gordon Ray offline and he uses the exact same method, so the plan I posted represents their situation as well.  Hope that clarifies.   

 

Curious if you have any input or suggestion on the plan I posted for investigation? 

I'd be curious to know the origin of the wall you used and if that had some effect. I use single layer wall types for 2 scenarios: concrete foundation walls, and as-built plans. I've never had the problem you demonstrated and I can't replicate it in a new plan or in an existing plan. But there's no question that something's buggy in the plan you posted, but I don't know what it is.

[Joe_Carrick]

8 minutes ago, robdyck said:

I'd be curious to know the origin of the wall you used and if that had some effect. I use single layer wall types for 2 scenarios: concrete foundation walls, and as-built plans. I've never had the problem you demonstrated and I can't replicate it in a new plan or in an existing plan. But there's no question that something's buggy in the plan you posted, but I don't know what it is.

I have the same observation.  Maybe you should try redefining your wall types in X13.

[BenPalmer]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.  I'll try creating new walls and report back.  They are very likely walls that have perpetuated over previous versions, so definitely worth trying that out.  Some of these issues don't happen right away.  They usually appear during the design process, seems to especially happen when cabinets start getting added to the plans, but can't recreate or verify that.

 

But again, this worked just fine all the way until mid-X12, and then after an update started messing up (I have given Chief the exact update that caused it).  So this is a Chief created issue for sure, but if I can find a solution, that would be great since Chief doesn't seem willing to fix this or help me with it. 

[Renerabbitt]

Just had the same problem present itself in an X-13 plan. Had to pull the thick wall back and reconnect any time that the adjacent walls were modified in any way.

[glennw]

Make the selected wall a Partition Wall.

 

Make the lower pony wall a Partition wall.

[BenPalmer]

@glennw thanks!   I hadn't tried the partition wall on the walls sticking through, I'll give that a go, appreciate you looking at it and giving your feedback.

 

On the shower walls, I forgot that was still in the file, I also discovered, similar to your suggestion, that this can be fixed by making the upper glass wall NOT a partition wall as well.

 

Thanks again for the tip.

[BenPalmer]

21 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

Just had the same problem present itself in an X-13 plan. Had to pull the thick wall back and reconnect any time that the adjacent walls were modified in any way.

 

@Renerabbitt was the issue with walls that have the typical wall layers?  Or are they non-layer walls like I use in the examples?  Trying to narrow it down. 

[Renerabbitt]

3 hours ago, BenPalmer said:

 

@Renerabbitt was the issue with walls that have the typical wall layers?  Or are they non-layer walls like I use in the examples?  Trying to narrow it down. 

Typical walls

[MoeGia]

 

On 6/24/2021 at 2:34 PM, Renerabbitt said:

Typical walls

I had this happen in X13 too.  They were pony walls.  I sent it in and was told to switch to see the upper wall connections (they were narrower walls) to use the 'connect wall' tool successfully.  It was a plan brought forward.  The walls were all connected so....

[BenPalmer]

On 6/26/2021 at 6:44 AM, MoeGia said:

 

I had this happen in X13 too.  They were pony walls.  I sent it in and was told to switch to see the upper wall connections (they were narrower walls) to use the 'connect wall' tool successfully.  It was a plan brought forward.  The walls were all connected so....

Thanks for the report @MoeGia appreciate you submitting a plan so they are seeing the issue from more than just me. 

[BenPalmer]

Still no fix for this in the latest update.  That lack of Chief's support is extremely disappointing.  If I could give Chief's support a ranking, it would get 1 star.   I just looked at the 12 tickets I have done over the last 20+ years, and all but one item had an answer something like:  I'll pass that on, or sorry for your frustration, but we are unable to fix it, or here is a workaround you can try, that didn't help, etc.

Maybe I'm asking too much?  Not sure why I'm paying for SSA...sheesh....certainly no Assurance ... aka Priority Tech Support (maybe that just means speed and not service?)   

 

(ok, done venting - for now)

[BenPalmer]

Quick follow up on this:

1. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.  Your time is much appreciated. 
2. It appears that update 23.2.0.55 has fixed the thick wall connection issues.  I appreciate Chief Architect taking care of this.  While I wish it didn't take a year, multiple reports/requests to tech support and this thread, I am still grateful it appears to be resolved.

Thank you again!