DH7777

Tired of fighting for perfected lighting on renders

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Though this picture has only 4 passes I realized it is time to stop and go back to the tedious time-consuming process to find the right combination to finally achieve a realistic rendering. Sometimes I adjust a few things hit ray trace and bam! 10 to 20 passes perfect picture first attempt and looks like it should be on the front cover of Architectural Digest magazine. Then there are times like this where nothing I do works. And I hate it when it looks like I get corners at walls and ceilings glowing like there is some crack in the wall or something not connected that allows outside light coming in! And everything is connected correctly! What is the deal? Also not shown in this picture is when I place recessed can lights on a sloped ceiling. In standard view, light glows just like on flat ceiling... Hit ray trace and it looks as if it's casting a shadow and is not flush with the surface. Guess what? it s is flush and shadow casting is OFF.  Would love for someone to tell me "just do this every time and you will never have this problem again". Is anyone able to tell me this?

desk.jpg

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My personal recommendation is to take a look at using CA's PBR(physically based renderer) versus Raytrace. Not that it doesn't have it's own issues but at least renderings are essentially instantaneous, 5 - 15 seconds, but it also allows you to make changes directly within the rendering window. Takes some time to adjust to but once done I don't think you will go back to Raytracing.

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8 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

My personal recommendation is to take a look at using CA's PBR(physically based renderer) versus Raytrace. Not that it doesn't have it's own issues but at least renderings are essentially instantaneous, 5 - 15 seconds, but it also allows you to make changes directly within the rendering window. Takes some time to adjust to but once done I don't think you will go back to Raytracing.

Yes, I am familiar with PBR. Very rarely can I get a picture to look good with this option. Yes, it is fast but it is even worse of a frustration for me most of the time. Usually, my walls turn a completely different color or even just one wall in a room. PBR takes a lot of time to master a decent pic as well. If I'm going spend all that time I'd rather ray-trace and get realistic rendering. I could care less about the time it takes for passes. I want realistic pics and I get them 8 times out of 10 but sometimes it is a fight.

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Understand. Looking at your rendering I suspect that the intensity of your sun is way too high. In most cases excessive grain is due to too much light, either the sun or an internal light fixture/source. There is the potential for light bleed, usually identifiable by grainy highlights along ceiling wall intersects, window casings and floor wall intersects. This issue is solved by ensuring your structure has a roof and a foundation with a floor. Just a note concerning this, even with a roof if the sun intensity is really high light bleeding can still occur.

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1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Understand. Looking at your rendering I suspect that the intensity of your sun is way too high. In most cases excessive grain is due to too much light, either the sun or an internal light fixture/source. There is the potential for light bleed, usually identifiable by grainy highlights along ceiling wall intersects, window casings and floor wall intersects. This issue is solved by ensuring your structure has a roof and a foundation with a floor. Just a note concerning this, even with a roof if the sun intensity is really high light bleeding can still occur.

Okay, thanks! I will look into this

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3 hours ago, DH7777 said:

 

 

I still use RT exclusively for better renders. Like you, I find PBR too much trouble to learn for inferior results.

 

Having said that, yes it's frustrating to spend a lot of time on a lousy RT.

 

My way of dealing with this is to set the Image Size to something very small, say 300~400 pixels wide, and turn off Photon Mapping. This gives me a light study in just a few seconds. Then tweak, reshoot, until I get it to look right, then change the Image Size back to Use Active Window Size, or whatever resolution you want, and turn Photon Mapping back on. Then start the final RT and go have a beer. :)

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6 hours ago, DH7777 said:

Okay, thanks! I will look into this

 

4 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

Having said that, yes it's frustrating to spend a lot of time on a lousy RT.

 

If you have a steady workload, why not hire a professional to do your renderings and save your $$$.
A scene like this could be very inexpensive.
This was just a quick draft with limited samples(passes): 

332482785_roughdraft.thumb.png.9ea9300571ac51516b24f91133796a77.png

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9 hours ago, DH7777 said:

Though this picture has only 4 passes I realized it is time to stop and go back to the tedious time-consuming process to find the right combination to finally achieve a realistic rendering. Sometimes I adjust a few things hit ray trace and bam! 10 to 20 passes perfect picture first attempt and looks like it should be on the front cover of Architectural Digest magazine. Then there are times like this where nothing I do works. And I hate it when it looks like I get corners at walls and ceilings glowing like there is some crack in the wall or something not connected that allows outside light coming in! And everything is connected correctly! What is the deal? Also not shown in this picture is when I place recessed can lights on a sloped ceiling. In standard view, light glows just like on flat ceiling... Hit ray trace and it looks as if it's casting a shadow and is not flush with the surface. Guess what? it s is flush and shadow casting is OFF.  Would love for someone to tell me "just do this every time and you will never have this problem again". Is anyone able to tell me this?

desk.jpg

I think you’re tying too hard. 
 

Start with all lights turned off so that Chief is providing the default lighting.  
 

Run a 10 pass RayTrace. (Should take less than a minute even on an Atari). 
 

Add lighting only if there’s a dark area that you’d like brighter. 
 

Ten pass RayTrace again. You’ll be surprised by the results. 

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10 hours ago, DH7777 said:

Yes, I am familiar with PBR. Very rarely can I get a picture to look good with this option. Yes, it is fast but it is even worse of a frustration for me most of the time. Usually, my walls turn a completely different color or even just one wall in a room. PBR takes a lot of time to master a decent pic as well. If I'm going spend all that time I'd rather ray-trace and get realistic rendering. I could care less about the time it takes for passes. I want realistic pics and I get them 8 times out of 10 but sometimes it is a fight.

 

Most don't do Raytrace anymore with the likes of free Twin Motion or D5 Render but Graham's old thread "Lets Raytrace is still available for Help if you haven't seen it ?

 

 

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15 hours ago, DH7777 said:

 Also not shown in this picture is when I place recessed can lights on a sloped ceiling. In standard view, light glows just like on flat ceiling... Hit ray trace and it looks as if it's casting a shadow and is not flush with the surface. Guess what? it s is flush and shadow casting is OFF.  Would love for someone to tell me "just do this every time and you will never have this problem again". Is anyone able to tell me this?

 

Try to offset light source from base to 6"

zcan light.jpg

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On 6/18/2020 at 7:49 PM, Michael_Gia said:

I think you’re tying too hard. 
 

Start with all lights turned off so that Chief is providing the default lighting.  
 

Run a 10 pass RayTrace. (Should take less than a minute even on an Atari). 
 

Add lighting only if there’s a dark area that you’d like brighter. 
 

Ten pass RayTrace again. You’ll be surprised by the results. 

I did not know you can ray-trace once then come back and turn some lights on and ray-trace the same picture again. Is this what you are saying?

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On 6/19/2020 at 1:58 AM, Chiefer said:

Try to offset light source from base to 6"

zcan light.jpg

So doing this will not take the light 6inches off the ceiling surface?

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On 6/18/2020 at 6:21 PM, Renerabbitt said:

 

If you have a steady workload, why not hire a professional to do your renderings and save your $$$.
A scene like this could be very inexpensive.
This was just a quick draft with limited samples(passes): 

332482785_roughdraft.thumb.png.9ea9300571ac51516b24f91133796a77.png

Thanks but my boss will not want to hire outside. He wants me to do it. This pic is not done with CA is it?

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33 minutes ago, DH7777 said:

Thanks but my boss will not want to hire outside. He wants me to do it. This pic is not done with CA is it?

No it is not, I would never go back to chief's raytrace, it is inferior to my other rendering software's in every way for any type of print media. I'm pretty sure it is still based on the POVray 2.0 engine, devs correct me if I'm wrong. Simply not a desirable tracing engine to work from when so many better software's exist in the market. 

 

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When I Ray Trace (I mainly use PBR currently) I expect to Ray Trace numerous times to check that materials, lighting and Sun Angle and intensity are properly adjusted. Once I am satisfied with the Ray Trace settings I then let it run about 10 times to get a final result. This IS time consuming and IS why I mainly use PBR or sometimes Twin Motion render engine. For quick high quality renders I use PBR and for special clients I use Twin Motion. Some people just require some 3D renderings to understand the designs, for remodeling I commonly just use  3D line drawings for renders. Photo Realistic rendering is a professional ART which should be properly charged for. Your client and your boss will tell you what is "OK" or not. Whatever you do has to fit into someone's budget. Learning Ray Trace or PBR takes some time to study and then practice to hone professional level skills, there are NO short cuts to competence. Only once did I have a client that required the help of a real pro (Jintu Designs) and he always does near perfect professional grade work, Rene Rabbit and Sam Vitone are also terrific Professional Render Pros.

 

DJP

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5 hours ago, DH7777 said:

did not know you can ray-trace once then come back and turn some lights on and ray-trace the same picture again. Is this what you are saying?

Yes, that’s what I mean. 
 

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12 hours ago, DH7777 said:

So doing this will not take the light 6inches off the ceiling surface?

 

He is talking about moving the Light SOURCE not the Light fitting  ie lowering the "bulb" ( light data ) down the wire so to speak.

 

12 hours ago, DH7777 said:

I did not know you can ray-trace once then come back and turn some lights on and ray-trace the same picture again. Is this what you are saying?

 

NO you can't Raytrace the SAME pic again, you have to Run the Whole RT again from the Same Camera ( ie save it and don't move it till done )

 

Have you seen these two free Webinars? 

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/videos/watch/10206/ray-trace-rendering-how-to-get-started.html?playlist=171

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/videos/watch/10205/3d-rendering-tips-and-tricks.html?playlist=171

 

M.

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chief RT engine is no longer base on POVray...Chief's own RT is called Phoebe..

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Achieving a great result from Ray-Tracing is indeed a lot of work but if you understand the functions of the many options, it becomes much easier. If you really want to learn ray-tracing, I recommend that you start with the tutorials that Chief offers: https://www.chiefarchitect.com/search/?q=ray+tracing&default_tab=video&page=1

 

My basic rules for achieving a great result include proper composition, material properties and lighting. You can read more about my process here https://epvisualz.com/what-makes-a-great-rendering/. That said, the best way to learn is through trial and error. Get to know the the individual functions of the ray-trace settings and then experiment so you can see the result, there really is no quick answer. One you learn how to use it, Chief's ray-trace tool can produce some really nice results. Here's an image that was modeled (with a a few imported icons) and rendered entirely in Chief.

 

Bedroom-Modern 3 RT.JPG

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Just my opinion, but having used extensively CA's Raytracer and PBR I have to say from my personal experience that the PBR renderer is the better choice by far for the average user who wishes to render from within CA. Once given some time to get a handle on lighting and materials it is much easier to obtain consistent results. As it renders almost instantly, combined with the fact that you can work live within the rendering window, it is much easier from a learning perspective. Yes, it will be a bit frustrating to make the initial leap but given some time and effort you will most likely look back and wonder why you stayed with Raytrace for so long. Every once in a while just out of interest I will run a Raytrace, after wasting several hours kind of going nowhere I jump back into PBR and get the job done. If the results from PBR are not to your likening then it's time to take a serious look at a third party renderer.

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3 hours ago, Chiefer said:

chief RT engine is no longer base on POVray...Chief's own RT is called Phoebe..

 

Yep , Chief created there own RT Engine many versions ago after using Export to POVRay for many Years, Chief does everything "in-house" these days (except the PDF interface I believe.) , so hopefully RTX and DirectX12 Ultimate are somewhere on the Drawing Board.

 

M. 

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On 6/23/2020 at 12:55 AM, DH7777 said:

So doing this will not take the light 6inches off the ceiling surface?

No, only the source.

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11 hours ago, ericepv said:

 

Bedroom-Modern 3 RT.JPG

 

Is this with Photon Mapping on?

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11 hours ago, Chiefer said:

 

Is this with Photon Mapping on?

No Photon Mapping.

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12 hours ago, ericepv said:

No Photon Mapping.

Try to apply it to show GI on every corner.

 

The bed seems to float too.

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