4hotshoez Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I ask the question to learn not to be critical. It is a cool feature to me, but not to my framers. The obvious is that it shows how the building is framed, but I have several very experienced framers working for us and they have NO use for such technology. So how can this feature in Chief help me in other ways? Also, our estimator has his ways without counting studs or having a computer telling him how many to buy. Such a feature is regarded as a waist of time and is viewed as a gimmick to sell the software. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Todd, I almost never include the 3D Framing in a set of ConDocs. However, I find it helpful during the design of the project to see where potential problems might occur during construction. It's helpful to see where there is/isn't sufficient space for ducts, pipes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidJPotter Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Certain Structural Engineers I work with require 3D framing details, so I will then use 3D framing to portray those details. Most of the time I just just 2D Details but as I said, which ones I use I leave up to the PE I am drawing for, which varies from person to person. DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I ask the question to learn not to be critical. It is a cool feature to me, but not to my framers. The obvious is that it shows how the building is framed, but I have several very experienced framers working for us and they have NO use for such technology. So how can this feature in Chief help me in other ways? Also, our estimator has his ways without counting studs or having a computer telling him how many to buy. Such a feature is regarded as a waist of time and is viewed as a gimmick to sell the software. What are your thoughts? Wow, just the opposite. I do not think framers count studs from this. But instead framers, plumbing contractors, HVAC guys look at these 3D framing views to VERY QUICKLY understand how the framing is done and where they will put in their soffits and then they quickly determine the project will not be as complicated as they may assume. I have received feedback from several contractors that when their subs can visually understand how the project goes together, the subcontractor's price go down.' Unbelievable, so you are telling me that you are giving the subs a 3d visual of the project and they think it is a gimic. I would look for new subs. Why don't you simply verbally explain the project to them, maybe they do not need a 3D or even a 2D representation of the project. Wave your hands around explaining the project and get an estimate of the costs. Plain stupid. I have been in this business for over 40 years, I can read a set of plans, but I will tell you, I have never been able to glean as much information from a project as I can now with a 3D model. If somebody tells me that a 3D representation of a project is a gimmick, I would look for different set of people to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 ......Also, our estimator has his ways without counting studs or having a computer telling him how many to buy....... Perfect, so the M.L. is irrelevant. This is really good news since I can't use the M.L. at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AriseDesign Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Scott, can you post a sample of a 3D framing set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hotshoez Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Scott, our framer is not a sub, but an employee and has a very good visual understanding in 3D when he looks at the 2D. He says that the 3D views are helpful, but the 3D framing is wrong in the areas that count. Anybody can frame a wall, but it is the odd spots that even Chief has a hard time with that matter for viewing. He is a rare guy that can see potential conflict before the first stick goes into place. He is a grumpy old guy that knows his work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Couldn't agree more with Scott, the 3d framing detail is a ton of help when it comes to details, etc especially when you do additions or new construction homes and you use chases which go from the basement into the attic for split zone systems, laundry shoots, plumbing, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Scott, our framer is not a sub, but an employee and has a very good visual understanding in 3D when he looks at the 2D. He says that the 3D views are helpful, but the 3D framing is wrong in the areas that count. Anybody can frame a wall, but it is the odd spots that even Chief has a hard time with that matter for viewing. He is a rare guy that can see potential conflict before the first stick goes into place. He is a grumpy old guy that knows his work well. Perfect, you can save time and avoid giving him a 3D view of framing. Interesting that he can not glean any info from a 3D representation.... what does that tell you? I have dealt with a lot of experienced framers and I have not had one framer tell me that a pic of what he is building is not helpful, not a one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_NY61 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Todd, I know what you saying, I have been building single family homes for almost 30 years, and my framer been with me as long... Of course the roof is not framed exactly as it comes out in CA, the framer does the layout on his own based on the structure and so is some of the framing. I never show him framing details of the plan, but this framing details are very helpful for HVAC or Plumbing contractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 What is so interesting about this is I would bet there are not too many framers that have had more experience than I, (or more experience than Perry and Joe to name a few), at reading framing plans, and I would bet that those two guys would agree with me, that a 3D representation of the framing is to some degree helpful in understanding the project construction. Anybody that tells me that too much information is bad, is probably someone that I could and would replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I framed for MANY years and would dare say I am as good a framer as they get. I can and have figured just about every roof combination over 15 years in the field building mainly custom homes. I have zero problem picturing how anything goes together. Now with Chief, the 3d framing is AWESOME when you are really pushing the limits of framing. (fitting rooms in under clipping roofs, making complicated stairways...often fitting in under sloping roofs as well. You can have all kinds of hip/ridge intersections that have to clear a certain size beam...etc. I agree that on most plans, it is not necessary. But every once in a while I will use the framing tools to make sure tight areas can work fine in the field. Plenty of room for beams, ventilation, head clearance....etc. Especially 2nd story rooms or stairs that fall under valleys set in from the outside bearing on the first floor. For someone to say they are useless.....I would say they are just drawing easy stuff Custom stuff with multiple plate heights, clip ceilings....etc..etc, it is an invaluable tool. Just let your framer tell you the tool is useless when he has a main bearing LVL that has to be overnotched at the end to stay under the roof plane and he is stuck bolting steel flitch plates to each side. I think he will like it if you had used the tools then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kMoquin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The 3D framing is absolutely useful to me - especially for the repetitive elements. It helps highlight potential conflicts. I don't expect the framers to locate each joist or rafter where I've drawn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 ....... I agree that on most plans, it is not necessary. But every once in a while I will use the framing tools to make sure tight areas can work fine in the field. Plenty of room for beams, ventilation, head clearance....etc. Especially 2nd story rooms or stairs that fall under valleys set in from the outside bearing on the first floor. ...... Yes Justin, I agree with you, not always required, but when there are special circumstances, even more so with remodels, the 3D framing is very valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 With larger structures the 3D Framing Views can be difficult to decipher when printed in Construction Documents. Some of that can be alleviated by careful camera placement but it would be nicer if we also had a "Floor Framing Overview" so that multiple floors could be split into different 3D Framing Views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hotshoez Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 My computer is too slow to experiment by adding framing to my current huge project, but if I create a cross section and have all the framing complete does the framing show in the cut walls (ie. plates show with "x")? This could be a benefit if this works. How much does the framing slow a plan down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You can turn any floor over view into a framing view just by changing the layer set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisualDandD Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just remember a call I got about 6 months ago on a small plan (with a tight back staircase that was partially under a clipped roof. The framer (one of the best I have ever known) called me as he was unsure of how the stairs could fit in and was also concerned that several beams that an eng sized would not fit under the roof. He wanted to raise the plate heights up of the roof. I assured him it would all fit and did these framing drawings in a few minutes and texted them to him in the field. It put his mind at ease and showed him the stair would work and have proper head clearance...etc. VERY VERY handy tool to have when you need it. The pics should be self explanatory. (In the view of the stairs, I did not take the time to draw the clg joists going the proper direction, it was more to show how the valley clipped the stairwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 My computer is too slow to experiment by adding framing to my current huge project, but if I create a cross section and have all the framing complete does the framing show in the cut walls (ie. plates show with "x")? This could be a benefit if this works. YES How much does the framing slow a plan down? VERY, VERY LITTLE. If you don't display a 3D Framing view, not at all. Even then, it's the GPU that would govern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You can turn any floor over view into a framing view just by changing the layer set. True, but how many users are aware of that. Also, for me it's a PITA to have to also turn off the "Show Floors Below". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 A few more now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I use Chief's framing on every plan I do. I don't show any 3d framing views, but Chief has gotten very good with their framing, like joists direction, posts, conc. pads ,or piers. Framing has some work to do yet but I like it. You've come a log way baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodCole Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I also have done a considerable amount of custom framing in my day. When I hear a framer saying that they basically already know it all and don't need to see a detailed and accurate model of the framing, that tells me something about their attitude. Winging it on an engineered custom design is a formula for what in job costing is called reworking. As in, they change things to suit their own ideas without knowing the overall design intent. This is one of the best ways I know of to run up the cost of construction, or any other form of manufacturing for that matter. Chief's framing is fairly good, but it does have a few areas that could stand some work. What I am working on is exporting CA framing out to another app where dimensions and 3D hardware can be added and sent out to a U3D PDF file. CA cameras can capture these elements if everything is set up properly. Even then you will find people who think they do not need anything like that. Funny how that works, and it ought to tell you something. I posted a U3D file of framing on another thread on BIM. That file is not on this computer or I would post it again. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I do all, or most of my details as live camera views....framing comes in very handy if you are providing details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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