Future decline in demand for designers/draftspersons?

[Paramount]

Things are a mess getting more complex and legal, Architects need to get back to Engineering and be compensated well for their skills stop focusing so much on art, CA, high def pics/videos......Drafters need to get back to drafting for them, although that skill will change in time to that is being discussed here: https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/10680-bims-and-ca/

 

Joe in the know says it all, about five years old my guess things have gotten worse. I road travel the USA often doing design jobs seen it all! https://www.architects.org/architectureboston/articles/if-walls-could-talk-science-building

[DRAWZILLA]

Geez, Perry, where do you come up with this garbage? The California Board of Architectural Examiners (as it was called back then) had a category of license called "Registered Building Designer" from 1964-1985. They eliminated this category in 1986, offering the existing Registered Building Designers the one-time opportunity to "upgrade" to the architect category. Only about 300 of the approximately 700 active registered designers took them up on this. Yep, pretty nefarious plot all right. (rolling eyes...)

Richard, I WAS THERE AND I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. DO YOU.

[Richard_Morrison]

Richard, I WAS THERE AND I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. DO YOU.

Let's let this go. I was licensed in California in 1983, working toward licensure before that, getting every newsletter from the California Architects Licensing Board, and I absolutely know what happened.

[DRAWZILLA]

Please stop ,just make your observation and end it, why do you like to attack me b/c I also have my side too and anyone who cares can make up their own mind. They did try to get rid of Designers.

[Paramount]

Geez, Perry, where do you come up with this garbage? The California Board of Architectural Examiners (as it was called back then) had a category of license called "Registered Building Designer" from 1964-1985. They eliminated this category in 1986, offering the existing Registered Building Designers the one-time opportunity to "upgrade" to the architect category. Only about 300 of the approximately 700 active registered designers took them up on this. Yep, pretty nefarious plot all right. (rolling eyes...)

 

"Garbage" "Rolling Eyes" Lets see on my BIMS/CA thread just two days ago you said I was making SSA's (Stupid Ass Assumptions), and I remember another last time I was active out here, your telling me and my son we have no clue how to run a business even though somehow without you ours is successful, a SAA you did not know anything about us. Whats your goal here? To show your intellect as an Architect with word choices, engineering, and belittling everyone you can? Having a bad day seems with you it's often. After listening to you in person yesterday on a telecon, I failed to see all the intellect and you have a  gentle sweet, sweet, kind voice, awwww Nothing like you display with your etiquette out here. Did you read Joe's article about Architects and lack of Building Science skills in the new fast growing green era? It challenges why you are even here? Why don't you do some more constructive with the time you say you have so little of like share all this BIMS experience you claim to have by helping some drafters and others with Building Science or Engineering skills you should have learned in college and practiced all these years, stay on topic. I love to see it rather than wasting your time getting in battles on lots of threads. 

 

Perry you have been very supportive and positive I for one appreciates it. The board made a mistake you can see clearly by the lack of Architects engineering skills in Joe's article, there are drafters or non-degrees that know more, they should have carried the legacy on for those qualified. Joe Lsitburek is one of the most respected Building Scientist and Engineers in the world. You won't find him or his kind on drafting forums. Me, I'm just a drafter no licenses anywhere however, I like the way Joe thinks and can identify. I've seen the powers remove non degreed drafters in other industries like aero/auto/power sports since drawings are now gone, turn talented Engineers into CAD jockies,  as I have stated on the thread I referenced. So, if one were to develop a drafting business and it failed there are less industry to turn to. My advice only the best will survive in some cases it may take showing licensing boards that may or may not replace experience for a degree. 

[ShaneK]

Come on Chief Architect forum moderator, delete this post. This is getting ugly and no resolution in site.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Moving this discussion back on subject. I don't believe there will be a diminishing need for Draftsman positions per say, there will however be a change in their functional duties. Traditional drafting is transitioning to information gathering and organization as continued software development takes over many of the rudimentary drawing tasks. Chief and many other programs are examples, there was a day when only a skilled draftsman could prepare accurate drawings/details with pen in hand and their personal expertise. Today, much of this can be done by learning software commands, the program builds the foundation, lays out the wall studs, builds the roof and then generates the appropriate layouts. Although not 100% there yet, one can foresee the day when this will be essentially automated. The so called Draftsman will be responsible to aggregate,manage and disseminate this information.

 

Graham

[lbuttery]

Graham:

 

yes, I can't draw at all, maybe not even a straight line with a ruler

 

Chief made it possible for me to work in this industry

 

Lew

[TheKitchenAbode]

Lew:

 

Same here, never really enjoyed drafting. The fact that non traditional persons can now become involved is something the industry is struggling with. As I am sure you understand, there are many traditionalist who do not like this trend as they see it as undermining their profession. What was their exclusive domain is now becoming open to others; increasing competition, pricing pressure and expended service offerings. Even us ourselves will eventually fall prey to this. I see more and more potential clients using free on-line layout programs for their kitchens, and although these programs are pretty basic they are constantly improving. I remember they days when to go on vacation you needed to go to a travel agent, now I go online myself book my flights, select my seat, specify my meal, arrange for the shuttle, book the hotel and even make my restaurant reservations. Travel agents are now a thing of the past, just like video stores and record stores.

 

Graham

[Richard_Morrison]

These are good points, Graham. I think there will always be room for people who know what they are doing. Years ago, drafting was a well-respected profession, where the drafters actually knew how things went together, and their drawings were often a work to be proud of in themselves. It also took some apprenticing and experience. It would have been difficult to retire from a completely unrelated job and start a drafting business with no training.

 

Now technology has made it possible to make mistakes far faster than before, and gaining entree into the business is far easier. Technology has replaced drafting skills in many cases, but it has not made people smarter. It may take awhile for Darwinism (in the form of litigation) to catch up. Details that have been pulled out of Chief's standard details and slapped on a page without thinking are eventually going to reveal that important things like shear wall transfer and proper eave venting might not have been included.

 

When a novice drafting service works for an educated customer like a contractor, many of these issues are avoided, of course. When that same novice drafter works for an uneducated homeowner, it is like the blind leading the blind. And it can be maddening for an experienced professional to have to compete for the business of that homeowner against a novice drafting service who is far cheaper.

 

Throwing a few cabinets into a kitchen plan seems easy to a homeowner, but they probably don't have the experience to understand many of the subtleties that you bring to the table that will actually make a great kitchen out of a mediocre to average one. Educating the consumer is an ongoing task.

[Paramount]

 Years ago, drafting was a well-respected profession, where the drafters actually knew how things went together....

 

Now technology has made it possible to make mistakes far faster than before, and gaining entree into the business is far easier. Technology has replaced drafting skills in many cases, 

 

 

 

It's clear to me you have no idea what your're talking about back at cha "garbage"!!

 

I started using ink and mylar (IOM) back in the mid 80's, then we went to CAD models using 3D wireframe (NCAD/NCAL) projected to 2D drawing's we did back then in Autocad. Difficult to find interference and define parameters with wires(lines, points, splines, curves, circles, etc). The problem was accuracy still although MUCH better than IOM. Then came the "solid" body oh about early 90's it had high use in the industries I worked. It revolutionized "drafting" allowing weight and very complex ruled/double compound surfaces that were an integral part of the solid body that could be extracted and used in other CAD_CAM applications such as numeric controlled never seen before with IOM. As a result of better design or "drafting" manufactured parts became far more accurate then ever before. The weight parameter allow a density to be applied and volume. The volume allowed for interference checking called "clash checks"  all in high use today but much more and better. That allowed huge complex structure some with very complex curvatures to accurately define the weight and moments of inertia not even imaginable with IOM, along with matting accurately to other structures and MEP systems. Moments of Inertia along with Center of Gravity locations(s) further defined FEM/A Finite Element Modeling we know today, and far more accurate stress analysis, along with a better understanding of boundary layer pressures and center flows in plumbing and HVAC, etc from solid modeling. Weight and material cost estimates as built far closer to ROM estimated from the designs never seen before. The result was far better designs and with less design errors. Today the technology is even better with BIMS and all kinds of solid body CAD_CAM technologies. As a result, there is FAR less room for error and the software is easy and fast to use and getting easier, faster, better all the time. In many industries, not this one as much YET, technology has eliminated drafting. 

[joey_martin]

Drafting something that is accurate, and drafting something that is structurally sound are two completely different things. 

 

It is clear, Terry, that you are very fluent in the use of acronyms and longwindedness, however...again....you have completely and utterly missed the point. 

[Paramount]

Drafting something that is accurate, and drafting something that is structurally sound are two completely different things. 

 

It is clear, Terry, that you are very fluent in the use of acronyms and longwindedness, however...again....you have completely and utterly missed the point. 

 If you think drafting from IOM (Ink on Mylar) produced more accurate "sound structure" than today's solid modeling and use of FEM( Finite Element Modeling) is probably what your PE is or should be using as I do you have definitely missed the point. I defined all my acronyms which ones don't you understand? 

 

Have you ever ran a FEM vs hand calcs for the old IOM? My goodness, which is more accurate and easier to produce? Ask your PE let me know their response? 

 

CA needs a FEM plug in then it may more sense depending on what you about structures analysis. Today's drafting or solid models and FEM are much better integrated then ever before, they are best accomplished in the same model, no exports. Drafting does not create sound structure, engineers and FEM do. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Terry - Please try to step back a bit, you are way to personally attached to this subject and it is making it impossible to have a congenial bilateral discussion. Perpetuating the virtues of systems utilized by leading engineering and manufacturing consortiums is interesting but it is necessary to make this discussion more relevant to our segment. We do not have the resources or authority to just adopt a system and force our existing supplier/contractor/client base to conform to our will. As you are aware, the investment in time and capital is considerable and to fully benefit from this requires a collective approach. From the perspective of our segment, how do you propose, beyond the use of generalizations, to address these constraints. Please do so without the use of acronyms, we are all aware that we are talking about a collaborative database with a 3D model user interface.

 

Graham

[Paramount]

Graham, yes I understand, not trying to force anything here. Much of what I am describing is practiced in large corporate including this one and the acronyms are commonly used so I assumed people know them. There are some that use them out here I don't get so I goggle them, simple! 

 

Small residential is going to be a challenge, the funds are not there nor the knowledge YET. Other software like sketch up has FEM and CFD( goggle this one let me know if you can't find it

 

I'll be back here in a bit to explain whats happen with structural integrity and drafting since back in the ink on mylar days. It's interesting if you are not don't read it.  

[TheKitchenAbode]

Thanks Terry - would be more interested in your thoughts concerning small residential/commercial construction/remodeling. Would not spend to much time on the history of drafting and the virtues of software engineering and interference checking, not really the most important aspect at our level. Would be far more appealing to discuss the pro's and con's as they apply to us.

 

Graham

[Richard_Morrison]

It's clear to me you have no idea what your're talking about back at cha "garbage"!!

 

I started using ink and mylar (IOM) back in the mid 80's, then we went to CAD models using 3D wireframe (NCAD/NCAL) projected to 2D drawing's we did back then in Autocad. Difficult to find interference and define parameters with wires(lines, points, splines, curves, circles, etc).

Well, let's see. Back in the 70's, I was a college kid working at a very large engineering firm in downtown Chicago. Because some of the buildings that the firm was working on were designed decades before, revisions were being made to the original LINEN drawings. Lots of other work on onionskin or sepias. The chief drafters were already old guys when I was there, and were treated almost like gods, only a small notch below the actual engineers, who were not that numerous compared to the drafting staff. Some of the older draftsmen actually wore green eyeshades and most wore aprons. There was a very clearly defined hierarchy for the drafting staff, with job titles including junior, senior, etc. Most of the drafting staff were not interested in pursuing an engineering degree; they already had a profession. Calculators were a novelty and hand-written calc's were the norm. So, excuse me if your attempt to school me on how things really "used to be" is falling on deaf ears.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Richard - There was something really great about those days that's been lost in the technological revolution. If you look back, those rooms full of draftsman with slide rules in-hand were intimately involved in many of the most significant achievements such as landing on the moon, the development of nuclear power, supersonic flight and so much more. There was a true pride in workmanship that has been lost in today's strive to improve the bottom line.

 

Graham

[Gawdzira]

@Terry (Paramount). Your constant caustic banter on this forum is poisonous. You are diluting the outstanding value that can be found in these threads.

[Richard_Morrison]

I think the OP was mainly asking if there is growing movement to require licensed professionals for plan submissions. As long as plans are being done competently, I haven't noticed it, and the unlicensed exemptions are pretty well established in statute. However, I have noticed that plan checkers are more demanding in what they are requesting, and will reject homeowner attempts at plans more frequently.  Interestingly, there has been a movement where unlicensed designers are demanding to be licensed (primarily interior designers) that is getting pushback, including from designers who really DON'T want to deal with licensing issues.

[ShaneK]

Who is the moderator of this forum, I said it earlier this post needs to go!!!!!!!! I'm sure many valid points but we all need to get along because we help each other MAKE MONEY WITH CA.

[Paramount]

Graham, you are obviously correct there is no need to go back and compare the old board days to today’s technologies, a no brainer to those that understand todays technologies that have much, much, higher capabilities than ever before. FEM by your PEs is now a no brainer, PEs don’t need to think as much anymore like the hand calc days, computer programs back calibrated with centuries of empirical data do most of it now, but trash in and out is definitely still possible nothing has changed in that respect since the hand calc days to less defined board definitions. Nothing has changed we have had ranks in engineering and drafting dating back over 30 years ago that meant little, much political and brown nose based, I can remember, and is still alive and well and worse today with all the global outsourcing drafting and engineering for lower wage. It is a good thing the regs got tighter, not entirely good, and code, if you read Joes article, but better.

 

I’m decided to wait for Simlabs MBD (3D model Based Definition) in September and I’m a bit CA rusty to write a suggested process using CA software and BIMs principles. As soon as they release and if after they let me beta test I think it’s worth it I’ll spend the money, and can export my CA model easy which I should be able to, I’ll update the CA/BIMS thread with a practical example from cradle to first test of a green small residential model I hope to put on the ground soon. One of my goals is to reduce the need for drafting by moving some of the info to the MBD. What will determine that will be the downstream users. Out of that alone I should be able to capture cost reductions in my case anyway. I hope to be able to manage the contractors myself but may need get back on the road to another design job pending funding. My main bread and butter comes from big corporate, just out here to get my a family member on the right track. The green stuff is challenging, banks, appraisers, have no clue how to value, but I found one just yesterday I am running a pilot program with that gives values to the design that is above the area average, test and guarantees the result to our clients.  This bank is only getting a 3D model and cost energy deltas resulting from higher energy values and solar. As this continues, the drafters role will change some of which may get complicated like it or not. Like Joe said, I don’t let HVAC trades size my system with manual j, I do it with free BEOPT or WUFI (CFD) does mold analysis and HVAC sizing much better to 3D models, I'll export CA to SAM by NREL that runs the most accurate CFD simulations and financial reports in the industry based on the 3D model.

[Richard_Morrison]

Richard - There was something really great about those days that's been lost in the technological revolution. If you look back, those rooms full of draftsman with slide rules in-hand were intimately involved in many of the most significant achievements such as landing on the moon, the development of nuclear power, supersonic flight and so much more. There was a true pride in workmanship that has been lost in today's strive to improve the bottom line.

I agree that something has been lost. While I am happy to see technology remove drudgery, and improve accuracy in some cases, it has also made things appear to be easy to do, and the time and experience needed to learn what you don't know is getting short-circuited when people can just buy a software program and set up shop. A few years ago I found out that I was competing for a large residential addition against a financial planner who did residential design as a "fun" part-time hobby. I couldn't compete with his fees and I lost. Sheesh....

[joey_martin]

Spot on Richard. To my knowledge...limited as it may be according to some...there are no software substitutes for the actual know-how to properly design and layout the plans for a structure, regardless of size and scope. I hold true to my original answer to this post...if you know what your doing, there will be a place for you in this industry for the foreseeable future. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Terry - It's just interesting the look back at what some of us see as the good-ole-days. You have to admit that though technology has brought about many advances, it has also resulted in a certain personal disconnect, kind of reminds me of the "Borg" collective in Star Trek; highly advanced but impersonal.

 

I am fascinated by technology, but do often question it's values and place. For all it is touted to bring, rockets still explode on launch and crash land, buildings are definitely more energy efficient but can barely last 25 years without constant on-going maintenance and retrofitting, our environment continues to decline and there is still no cure for cancer. On the bright side, I can be assured that a drone will deliver to my home my next order from Amazon.

 

Graham