MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I'm fairly new with CA. I understand that CA is a model building software capable of generating different detailed drawings. I've spent many hours reading forums and help topics, etc... Its easy (well somewhat) to create a building from scratch from the foundation to the roof. But currently I have a project that involves a real world project. Back when I used to draw by hand, the systematic way would be to as follows: Existing building plan, demolition plan followed by final concept. Here is the part I'm getting lost in. What is the thought process for CA? I have created the as-built of the existing building from the foundation to the roof. the model is pretty much perfect to the detail. I could modify the model to get my final project. Not a problem. I need to generate the demolition drawing (as well as the original as-built and the final building drawing) for a construction drawing set. What is the thought process. Is to best to change the existing walls and do a CAD detail for each type of drawing? Is it better to create a layer set for each phase? I've been trying many things. It seems that as I work in the remodel layer sets it changes the default layer set. I'm having a foundation wall problem. I'm creating and setting the demo wall to the right layer but when I try to drop the new footing wall on top of the old footing wall (the original footer is the wrong size) I loose the old demolition wall even though they are on different layers. I'm Stumped and not sure which way to go. Please help, Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 There have been countless threads on this subject. Search "demolition" or "as built mask" and you'll probably come up with several. Don't have a lot of time to get into it right now, but three quick notes... 1. Using layers for this sort of thing in Chief doesn't work very well IMO and you can only have two walls occupy the same space at any given time. The key to getting this method to sort of work is to set one of the walls to "no room definition". 2. What most people do is draw up the as built, use that to create a CAD mask, and then overlay that mask onto the proposed plan to represent demolition walls. 3. What I personally do is draw up the as built, do a save as, use that to draw up the demolition plan, do another save as, then use that to draw up the proposed. I just send views from all three plans to layout as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I'm going to ruffle some feathers here....but there should be a disclaimer with Chief stating something like "...not the ideal software for remodeling projects..." You have posted, and now be prepared for 100 different ways users use Chief for the remodeling industry. None of them are wrong, and none of them may be right for you. Chief is suited for new home design and construction, and if you can develop a system to make it work for remodeling...great! It's not the answer you are looking for, but to be honest, there is no answer for remodels. You have to muddle your way through and find the system that works best for the way you attack a project, and then fine tune and make it your own. Having said all that....my system is to create as "As-Built" model. As perfect as I can get it, and that is the basis for everything I do next. While in plan view, I use the CAD FROM VIEW tool, and create a CAD block of that floor plan, as I will use it down the road. I then make a copy of that file and call it "DEMO PLAN" and do my thing with that plan, all the while, I take that CAD block of the original floor plan, and use it as an overlay on the demo plan. Put it on it's own layer and lock it so that it doesnt get disturbed during the creation of the demo plan. Now I go back to the original and create a SAVE AS copy and name it "NEW CONSTRUCTION" or something similar, and create my remodel. You will have 3 different files, and they can all be sent to same layout page as needed. Like I said...my way isn't right, or wrong, but it's the way I do projects like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Thank you for the direction. I thought of option #3 but have not made it that far with this drawing and didn't know if it would work. What I like the best about option #3 is being able to go back and modifing the appropreiate plan individually and not getting lost or screwing up another plan. So I will be able to send from any plan to the same layout? I didn't know that but was wondering. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Well this looks like (2) people with basically the same opinion and goes along with my original thinking but not knowing, and with all the searching and reading overloaded me up with maybe to much information and question. Thank you for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Although our suggested methods are similar, my opinion differs from Joey's in that I don't think there is any problem at all using Chief for remodels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I do remodels all the time and have found no other way that works for me other than 2 plans. An As-Built, built as closely to the original as you can, then a Proposed Plan which is just the As Built' saved as the Proposed Plan, or whatever name you choose. I do't have or use a specific demo plan. I combine that with my proposed plan that shows demoed walls. I use a mask as well, which is created from the As built (with most every layer other than walls turned off) to show demo walls and use Chief's basic method for creating that mask. Link below. https://www.chiefarchitect.com/support/article/KB-02208/showing-the-as-built-in-a-remodel-plan.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicinus Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I'm somewhat in between, I use Michael's #3 method but I hate the inflexibility and think it is a painful to have to do this for remodels. Chief needs to think this over for the future and implement some form of design option or a way to use mutually exclusive layers (which probably is the same thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 The majority of the work that I do is remodeling and rehabbing. From my perspective (even though I am a new to CA) I can already see from working on this current project that it is going to be a good tool for me. I have drawn an accurate as-built. and in another file I have already drawn the end project. It helped me correspond with the owner and pointed out the problem areas as we tried new layouts. Having this ability cuts down my architect costs and saves me and my crew time in the field. I just need to used to the darn program as it's not saving me to much time right now.LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Quick crappy video on my thought process and remodel method. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I'm somewhat in between, I use Michael's #3 method but I hate the inflexibility and think it is a painful to have to do this for remodels. Chief needs to think this over for the future and implement some form of design option or a way to use mutually exclusive layers (which probably is the same thing). I think it would nice to have the ability to have many versions in one plan but Chief's programming paradigm will not allow for that at this time. I've grown so used to this method that it's second nature but the downside is missing something in the as-built after you've created your proposed plan. Then you must go back and make changes to the as-built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicinus Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 ...the downside is missing something in the as-built after you've created your proposed plan. Then you must go back and make changes to the as-built. And this is the big issue. I realize that we all work differently and I may be particularly sloppy in that I want to measure up a rough building and then start working on ideas for the remodel immediately. One reason for this is that I many times needs to get a feel for what is possible before I take the job (or buy the property). All major disruptions in terms of software tools has in one way or another offered a work paradigm that is not linear. Word processors allowed us to edit text without using Tipex. Non-linear video editing allowed us to put video on hard disks instead of doing rolls between two tape recorders. CAD itself allows for unlimited tweaking. Chief needs to find a way to allow multiple versions of the same house in the same plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Thank you Larry - I was able to follow the CA and was able to produce the as-built cad detail as described in the guides and as you show, I do understand the concept and am using it. It does help. The house that I'm rehabbing involves a total gut of the existing structure, a half ass attached garage conversion over to living space for a new kitchen and a master suite addition of the back of the house. Yes I will admit this is one heck of a project for a first time use of CA., but I'm dedicated and I figure I should have a good working knowledge of the program by the time I finish this project. The as-built was not to bad to generate and I saved it as a file, I modified the as-built to get the final concept and saved it as a file. Of course these were good enough to print 9not to layout) and email to the owner to create our final product. The confusion came when I sat to try to figure out how to show all the required demolition without screwing up the as-built and final concept. There are a lot of demo details from roofing, trusses/rafters, int/ext walls, stem walls and footers, Windows, doors, soffits. Cutting existing truss tails, you name it this project has it. plumbing, electrical. That's what had me overwhelmed. How do I do all this when the walls in the layer set(s) keep changing on me. That is why I am glad to hear I can do different "Save As" and then send them to a single Layout. Having 3 different files will keep things simpler and a little more organized for me. It will also allow me to only screw up 1 file instead of multiple things in 1 file. I still have the learning curve ahead of me generating the various cad details. I see pictures of prints generated by CA and I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Chief needs to find a way to allow multiple versions of the same house in the same plan. Nick, That could be a lot more difficult to program than it would be worth. It would most likely have to work in a manner very similar to your current method. The alternative of having Wall-Types, etc associated with different Layers (Existing, New, Demo) that could coexist within the model would IMO be a nightmare. Back when we were doing manual drafting we had separate plans (sometimes combining existing and demo) and I don't really see that changing just because we are using a 3D CAD System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC_Florida Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 I agree with you Joseph, I like hand drawing and have done it for many years and I would have probably had this drawing done by now, but CA sure allowed me to see the problem areas in the conversion from the old to new. So now I have to figure out how to get it to paper.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicinus Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 That could be a lot more difficult to program than it would be worth. It would most likely have to work in a manner very similar to your current method. The alternative of having Wall-Types, etc associated with different Layers (Existing, New, Demo) that could coexist within the model would IMO be a nightmare. Hate to pull the old Revit card, but over there they have a concept of 'phases'. When you draw a wall it is automatically assigned to the phase 'existing' and if you then switch to 'new construction' and draw walls Revit will know that these are new. You can mark walls to be demolished, and they will only show up in views that includes that phase. This way I can work on multiple views/plans in parallel, one existing, one existing with demolish, one new construction with demolish, or just the way it will look as new construction. It is just different view modes so you keep working on your model just like normal but make sure different things belong to their proper phase. (In a similar fashion one can have different 'design options' in the same phase, such as different roof styles or entry doors and so on.) I'd love to see something similar in Chief but I agree with you that it is most likely require a major change in the code. Have a look at this video for a relatively quick overview. This guy is unfortunately a bit tedious in his explanation, but I couldn't find any shorter video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un25LGpykfs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidJPotter Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 It is inevitable that all concerned see the glass half full or empty due to their own fixed ideas. Using two models for remodeling is how I have always done it since 1994, perhaps I was too stupid to see how "horrible" this was. I was merely happy to stop using an eraser. You all do as you see fit, you always do as I will do also. I know Chief Architect is not "perfect" especially from any given viewpoint but it is pretty darn good and I have no intention to go back to the drawing board, thank you very much! DJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumbleChief Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Hate to pull the old Revit card, but over there they have a concept of 'phases'. When you draw a wall it is automatically assigned to the phase 'existing' and if you then switch to 'new construction' and draw walls Revit will know that these are new. You can mark walls to be demolished, and they will only show up in views that includes that phase. This way I can work on multiple views/plans in parallel, one existing, one existing with demolish, one new construction with demolish, or just the way it will look as new construction. It is just different view modes so you keep working on your model just like normal but make sure different things belong to their proper phase. (In a similar fashion one can have different 'design options' in the same phase, such as different roof styles or entry doors and so on.) I'd love to see something similar in Chief but I agree with you that it is most likely require a major change in the code. Have a look at this video for a relatively quick overview. This guy is unfortunately a bit tedious in his explanation, but I couldn't find any shorter video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un25LGpykfs I think the concept is brilliant and would love Chief to implement such a feature but I'm not optimistic as the code changes could prove to be monumental but worth it IMO. It would fundamentally change the way Chief works, and in a very good way IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 That would be nice - but I'm not willing to pay the price that Revit charges. If I was, I'd just switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Could it be possible to have 1 file be the As-is condition, make a "symbol" of the entire 3D model and then import that symbol into the "remodel" file and display the as-built symbol in a graphical way to help? Maybe make it some sort of semi-transparent material?....perhaps you would need to make a symbol per floor so the 2d block made sense? (added) i just did a quick test and this method would have possibilities if you played around with it some. Turned everything to a "grey glass" and I had both the 2d from the symbol and 3D so it showed a transparent grey where walls on the original plan were. This method is definitely classified as a "work-around" but if you wanted a graphic for your client it would work well for that sort of thing. For CD's 2D block way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Could it be possible to have 1 file be the As-is condition, make a "symbol" of the entire 3D model and then import that symbol into the "remodel" file and display the as-built symbol in a graphical way to help? Maybe make it some sort of semi-transparent material?....perhaps you would need to make a symbol per floor so the 2d block made sense? Wow Johnny. That is a super cool idea in my book. The mask most people use could become the CAD block for the symbol. I see no reason why that wouldn't work. You could even make symbols for various components or layers. Not sure I would personally ever use the idea but very creative thinking nonetheless and could potentially result in some pretty stinkin cool presentations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Johnny, How about just a series of perspective camera views (tech illustration) in the Layout. You can add any annotation needed in the Layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Yeah that would work well too. If I actually did remodels more often I could see putting some time into this to perfect it, but to me it looks like you could do some cool things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 measure up a rough building and then start working on ideas for the remodel immediately Nicinus: I'm with you on this method: the client (and me) want to see the possible changes "soonest" so I will model the as-built impact areas "perfectly" and then start working on the remod changes and not worry about the rest of the as-built at this time once that dust settles then I will clone the remod version with a save as for the as-built then rip out the remods and finalize the rest of the as-built then send the needed views from the two plans to the layout this method may be "backwards" but it worked for me Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey_martin Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 That would be nice - but I'm not willing to pay the price that Revit charges. If I was, I'd just switch. Bingo. Make it too much like Revit, and it just becomes....well....Revit. No thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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