STANDARD RENDER IN X13 VS. X12

[kwhitt]

I realize there will be differences between X12 and X13 when it comes to the rendering engine; however, the standard renderer in X13 looks awful compared to the results I got in X12.

 

The new standard render looks completely washed out even when I decrease material brightness.  I've also played around with ambient settings.  It appears the shadows aren't dark enough and I don't see where I have any control over the darkness/brightness of shadows.  There's also something strange happening with the cast shadows in the image below.  The first image is X12 and the second is X13.

 

Are there plans to improve this or is the focus solely only PBR with real-time raytracing?  If so, that's unfortunate as the standard renderer was great at turning out a quick image.

[kwhitt]

I forgot to mention that the ambient occlusion is maxed out at 100%.  It's as if there is no ambient occlusion at all.

[Chopsaw]

Those are excellent examples to send in Kevin.  Also don't forget to mention the auto generated light fixture beside the doorway.   Digital shadows ?  What is up with that ?

[robdyck]

2 minutes ago, Chopsaw said:

Those are excellent examples to send in Kevin.  Also don't forget to mention the auto generated light fixture beside the doorway.   Digital shadows ?  What is up with that ?

It looks like the wall material is producing a sheen from the recessed light above. It's just barely visible in the X12 example. The lighting and some materials are being rendered quite differently. Makes it tough to predict the outcome.

[kwhitt]

19 minutes ago, Chopsaw said:

Those are excellent examples to send in Kevin.  Also don't forget to mention the auto generated light fixture beside the doorway.   Digital shadows ?  What is up with that ?

Hey Chop - not sure what's going on with the shadows.  I could always get quick, decent results with the standard renderer - now not the case.  I suspect the ambient occlusion is not working.  That would go a long way to improving the images.  I'm tempted to stick with X12 for now, but there are so many cool new features in X13.  I am blown away by the control I have over cabinet door and drawer reveals, but I much prefer the results I was getting from X12.  We do a lot of cabinetry!

[kwhitt]

Here are a couple more comparisons between X12 and X13 from the same project.

[kwhitt]

[Kbird1]

26 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

I could always get quick, decent results with the standard renderer - now not the case

 

I agree , it is just not the same anymore , it was much Cleaner/Crisper in X12 and good enough for most of my Clients,

I feel the same about the STD PBR cameras too actually, and am starting to thinking buying a 3080 was a mistake as

the Hype of RTRT has just not been delivered yet..... ( 1 version too early for public release? )

 

M.

[kwhitt]

15 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

I agree , it is just not the same anymore , it was much Cleaner/Crisper in X12 and good enough for most of my Clients,

I feel the same about the STD PBR cameras too actually, and am starting to thinking buying a 3080 was a mistake as

the Hype of RTRT has just not been delivered yet..... ( 1 version too early for public release? )

 

M.

Hey Mick.  Agreed.  I opened a case with tech support.  Will let everyone know what they say.

 

I just noticed something else that's really strange.  It appears the ceiling gets lighter while the floor gets darker - exactly the opposite of what should happen with down lights at the ceiling.  Notice that the "banding" around the vaulted ceiling is washed out in the 2nd image (X13) and the carpet under the sectional sofa is dark (can barely notice the pattern).  This is the opposite of what I'd expect with a room illuminated by down lights.

 

Materials that contain image maps (textures) like the beaded board ceiling, art, etc. don't seem to vary between the two versions except for those closest to the floor.

[Kbird1]

3 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

Hey Mick.  Agreed.  I opened a case with tech support.  Will let everyone know what they say.

 

Thanks I'd appreciate it , nice looking Project BTW.

 

Mick

[kwhitt]

19 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Thanks I'd appreciate it , nice looking Project BTW.

 

Mick

Thanks Mick!

[Dermot]

Quote

 

 I opened a case with tech support.  

 

 

Good.  We will look into this when we have all the info.  Be sure and include your original X12 plans along with all of the reference files by using the Backup Entire Plan tool.  Also, be sure to indicate all of the differences that you have noticed on your system so we know what we should be investigating.

 

[kwhitt]

1 minute ago, Dermot said:

 

Good.  We will look into this when we have all the info.  Be sure and include your original X12 plans along with all of the reference files by using the Backup Entire Plan tool.  Also, be sure to indicate all of the differences that you have noticed on your system so we know what we should be investigating.

 

 

1 minute ago, Dermot said:

 

Good.  We will look into this when we have all the info.  Be sure and include your original X12 plans along with all of the reference files by using the Backup Entire Plan tool.  Also, be sure to indicate all of the differences that you have noticed on your system so we know what we should be investigating.

 

Will do.  Does Chief have an FTP server where I can upload large files?  I'll send both the X12 and X13 if you want them.

[Dermot]

Quote

Does Chief have an FTP server where I can upload large files?

 

Good question for tech support.

 

Quote

I'll send both the X12 and X13 if you want them.

 

In general, you should send tech support what they ask for.  For problems where an X12 plan does not look the same in X13, we typically only need the X12 plan.  Once you start changing things in X13, then we can no longer determine if the problem happened when the legacy plan was converted or if it happened later.  Too much info is almost always better than not enough.

 

 

[kwhitt]

5 minutes ago, Dermot said:

 

Good question for tech support.

 

 

In general, you should send tech support what they ask for.  For problems where an X12 plan does not look the same in X13, we typically only need the X12 plan.  Once you start changing things in X13, then we can no longer determine if the problem happened when the legacy plan was converted or if it happened later.  Too much info is almost always better than not enough.

 

 

 

Okay, will wait to hear from tech support.

[DzinEye]

3 hours ago, kwhitt said:

I'm tempted to stick with X12 for now, but there are so many cool new features in X13

Boy you hit the nail on the head with that comment.  I've been sticking with X12 because of all the issues I'm seeing reported.  I don't recall ever seeing this many issues at a new release ...but man after going through the list of new features it's driving me nuts to not be able to take advantage of them yet. I don't yet have a machine that'll take advantage of RTRT so I can hold off for a few more months... hopefully some of these hiccups will get ironed out soon.

[kwhitt]

50 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Boy you hit the nail on the head with that comment.  I've been sticking with X12 because of all the issues I'm seeing reported.  I don't recall ever seeing this many issues at a new release ...but man after going through the list of new features it's driving me nuts to not be able to take advantage of them yet. I don't yet have a machine that'll take advantage of RTRT so I can hold off for a few more months... hopefully some of these hiccups will get ironed out soon.

Mark - It certainly is feature rich.  Other than the standard renderer and the hardware lines disappearing in elevation view, I have not encountered any other issues - not to discount those problems.  I really appreciate the new cabinet dialog box which allows me to build just about anything and the accuracy is such that I can use the output for shop drawings without a CAD detail from view.

 

I just ordered a new computer with the RTX 3090 card, so looking forward to diving into PBR w/ RR.  That said, I'd stick with the Standard Renderer if it performed like it did in X12.

[DzinEye]

5 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

I just ordered a new computer with the RTX 3090 card

What?!?!?... I thought I read in one of your posts several weeks ago that it turned out your current card was good?  I guess I missed something there?

I have been using X13 for just practice stuff, but a little afraid yet to bring over my X12 projects.  It's good to hear you haven't had many issues...but then you also have a pretty powerful machine already even without the 3090 card.  

[kwhitt]

3 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

What?!?!?... I thought I read in one of your posts several weeks ago that it turned out your current card was good?  I guess I missed something there?

I have been using X13 for just practice stuff, but a little afraid yet to bring over my X12 projects.  It's good to hear you haven't had many issues...but then you also have a pretty powerful machine already even without the 3090 card.  

You are correct.  That's the office machine with the NVidia Quadro RTX 5000 which I rarely use.  I work from home where I can actually get something done these days.  I only go to the office two days a week to meet with clients.

[robdyck]

11 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

What?!?!?... I thought I read in one of your posts several weeks ago that it turned out your current card was good?  I guess I missed something there?

I have been using X13 for just practice stuff, but a little afraid yet to bring over my X12 projects.  It's good to hear you haven't had many issues...but then you also have a pretty powerful machine already even without the 3090 card.  

Hey Mark, my old (2 years) pc had the same graphics card you have and I couldn't generate ANY 3d views in X13. I had to spend 4K on a new machine to be able to use X13. I chose to go high enough to get really quick PBR-RT views. I take it yours i working with X13?

[DzinEye]

33 minutes ago, robdyck said:

Hey Mark, my old (2 years) pc had the same graphics card you have and I couldn't generate ANY 3d views in X13. I had to spend 4K on a new machine to be able to use X13. I chose to go high enough to get really quick PBR-RT views. I take it yours i working with X13?

Very interesting!?!...and painful!   No I've been able to do all the standard rendering techniques... including PBR and the new clay one.  Haven't tried a ray trace.  So far no crashes either, and mouse is working just fine too... so perhaps I shouldn't worry, but I just have a very short fuse for technology giving me grief...so I'm legitimately wary.

[PMMully]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:55 PM, Dermot said:

 

Good question for tech support.

 

 

In general, you should send tech support what they ask for.  For problems where an X12 plan does not look the same in X13, we typically only need the X12 plan.  Once you start changing things in X13, then we can no longer determine if the problem happened when the legacy plan was converted or if it happened later.  Too much info is almost always better than not enough.

 

 

@Dermot can you guys access a share drive that one might setup versus FTP?

[PMMully]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:48 AM, kwhitt said:

I realize there will be differences between X12 and X13 when it comes to the rendering engine; however, the standard renderer in X13 looks awful compared to the results I got in X12.

 

The new standard render looks completely washed out even when I decrease material brightness.  I've also played around with ambient settings.  It appears the shadows aren't dark enough and I don't see where I have any control over the darkness/brightness of shadows.  There's also something strange happening with the cast shadows in the image below.  The first image is X12 and the second is X13.

 

Are there plans to improve this or is the focus solely only PBR with real-time raytracing?  If so, that's unfortunate as the standard renderer was great at turning out a quick image.

The new rendering engine, and reason for change, is explained very well in the video below. You will see at about 7:29 into the video, differences like you show between X12/X13. This is also clear in interior and exterior scenes. While this is all about Raytrace, I suspect the standard 3D will follow. The fact that the rendering is now platform specific, and leverages GPUs (and most likely drivers under the covers that are card specific), I think you can just expect some difference. This may show up between the Apple/Windows, and even between AMD/Nvidia. the mobile app guys have similar issues between iOS and Android. I imagine CA is leveraging the Nvidia Lray/DirectX12 Raytracing API.

 

Raytracing is the key in the gaming industry. The materials and lighting will be even more important in X13. I suspect that there are lighting and material issues that will plague us for a bit. It is just the whole way these engines (card/software) work.

 

Here is a link to the Nvida site to learn more:

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/design-visualization/solutions/rendering/

 

If you really want to dive in, look at the DirectX/Nvidia Lray stuff for Windows (I am sure a different link for Apple):

https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/introduction-nvidia-rtx-directx-ray-tracing/

 

Here is the CA video that shows the same sort of differences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VgAoVEJlSA

 

These are just pictures. Different film speeds gave different results in the old days, same with the digital camera picture capture, some better than others.  I suspect there will be some interesting tweaks coming out in the next year. 

 

[jtcapa1]

I have been having a hellashish challenge in getting my rope lighting, hidden just about a tray ceiling molding, to display.

I also added a reccan to the pantry and one of those "add lights" right behind the glass door, but nothing displays there either.

 

I've watched the helpful "Real Time Ray Tracing" video CA put out, and tweaked all the various settings for PBRT, which really works great to get the camera image to show more clearly and realistically. I have also noticed that the reccan's do not cast light and shadows the way it should in PBRT'ing.

 

[rgardner]

15 minutes ago, jtcapa1 said:

I have been having a hellashish challenge in getting my rope lighting, hidden just about a tray ceiling molding, to display.

I also added a reccan to the pantry and one of those "add lights" right behind the glass door, but nothing displays there either.

 

I've watched the helpful "Real Time Ray Tracing" video CA put out, and tweaked all the various settings for PBRT, which really works great to get the camera image to show more clearly and realistically. I have also noticed that the reccan's do not cast light and shadows the way it should in PBRT'ing.

 

I am not a rendering artist like many on here but make sure you have your maximum light count turned WAY up when you use rope lights as in default it is set to have a light every 3" and more often if you change that.  That means for a 8ft long piece of rope lighting you will have 36 lights.  When you have it set at 8 or 20 lights that is not enough to even turn on the rope light.  So turn that way up.

 

BTW This type of post is usually better served in your own post instead of another thread as you most likely will need to share some settings, pictures, and/or your plan file, if it is not something easy to diagnose.  But in this case I would start with making sure you have enough lights activated and then start your own thread if you need to.