Understanding Annosets, Defaults & Layersets

[Joe_Carrick]

I created the attached PDF mostly for myself to document my understanding of how these things work and how I want them set up.  The exact setup for any particular user would be dependent on the type of work.  I can see that some users might have little or no need for Annosets if their work is limited to just one scale and discipline.  But for most users that's not the case.

 

IAE, I thought it would be helpful to post this for those who might be confused or overwelmed by the complexity which seems to be involved.  It isn't really that complex but understanding the relationships and how they can be best utilized is important.

 

Enjoy!  And go ahead and let me know if you think I missed something that should be included.

Annosets_Defaults_Layersets.pdf

[OldCKD]

Thank you so much for putting that together.  I need to get myself better organized and this is a big help.

[dshall]

Joe,  feel that I understand this fairly well,  and I use them all the time.  A comment,  you said that you use the annoset to trigger the layer set.  This is what I do.

 

HOWEVER........  I think CA made a mistake here.  I do not think the anno set should trigger the layer set,  I think the layer set should trigger the anno set.  If this was the case,  there would be fewer anno sets.  

 

I use a multitude of layers sets that could utilize a single anno set.  I do not think a multitude of anno sets can utilize a single layer set.  This results in more anno sets than I need,  but I need these to trigger a particular layer set.

 

I am  working on a project from a common client of ours,  and they have attempted to simplify this process,  I am trying to work within their system,  but I find myself adding additional layer and anno sets along with additional layers.

 

Nuts,  this is can be very complicated to have one system that works for all users.  I think the system utilized will be unique to each user.

 

Bottom line for the post,  I think CA should  change this from anno sets triggering layer sets to layer sets triggering anno sets.

[Joe_Carrick]

FWIW,  Color can be used in Layouts and used to make the printed drawings clearer to the contractors and sub-contractors.  I don't print in color very often because the printing can get to be very expensive.  OTOH, I send the color to Layout and then print in Grayscale or Color depending on the need..

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott,

 

To address your comment on which should be in control:

 

1.  Annosets should have just one purpose - control annotation per scale (Text, Dimensions. Callouts, Markers, Arrows) so that sizes are consistent

2.  Layersets OTOH have the job of fine tuning the Display according to the Type of Drawing.

 

If "Current CAD Layer" were moved to the "Layerset Definition" then the two systems could be used independently from one another. 

 

OTOH, I don't think it would do that much good to make Layersets trigger Annosets because it would simply result in more Layersets because you would need a duplicate Layerset for each scale.  ie:

 

1/8" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/8" Scale Plan Annoset

1/4" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/4" Scale Plan Annoset

1/2" Arch Plan Layerset -> 1/2" Scale Plan Annoset

 

vs the current system which is just the opposite.  The key element that makes this still complex is that of Dimension Defaults.  The items to be dimensioned vary from Drawing Type so we still need separate Annosets for not only each scale, but also for each Drawing Type.

 

The only way I can see to avoid this conundrum would be to make the dimensionable object settings be controlled via the Layerset - perhaps another column like "Text Style"

[Joe_Carrick]

Another note for Scott:

 

I do have (like you) an Annoset for almost every Layerset.  But there are a some Layersets for which I do not have a specific Annoset.  All_On, All_Off, Perspective Camera Views, etc.

 

Perhaps you should take another look at the Layersets to see if you really need that many.  I try not to have separate Layersets for different scales, so I have more Annosets, but fewer Layersets. 

 

IAE, I agree with you that it's going to be a different set of needs for different users.  My document was - as I said - something I did for myself to clarify my understanding of how it currently works and what works for me.  It has allowed me to simplify my own system but there is still quite a bit of complexity.

 

One thing that I have done sometimes is use different Layersets when sending the same CAD Window to Layout.  For example, I send Kitchen Interiors to Layout showing Cabinets, Appliances, etc and then use another Layerset to send just the MEP connections which are dimesioned so the trades know where the connections need to be on the walls.

[dshall]

.......

Perhaps you should take another look at the Layersets to see if you really need that many.  I try not to have separate Layersets for different scales, so I have more Annosets, but fewer Layersets. 

........

Apparently I am missing something.  I thought I needed a different layer set for my two different site plans sent to layout.  If I send one site plan to layout at 1"=10' and one site plan sent to layout at 1"=60',  I need a different layer sets for each to control the TEXT SIZE.

 

 If I use the same layer set for each,  the text will be the same size,  and of course i would assume I would like the text for the 1"=60' LARGER than the text for the view that is sent at 1"=10'.

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott,

 

You are in fact missing something.  The Annoset is responsible for the Text size because it uses a Defaults.  IOW:

 

For 1"=10' you have one set of Defaults that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc. 

For 1"=20' you have another set of Defauts that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

For 1"=20' you have one set of Defaults that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

For 1"=60' you have another set of Defauts that control the sizes of Text, Dimensions, etc.

 

In the Site Plan Layerset everything is set to use Defaults.  Do not customize the Text in the Layerset.

 

So for Site Plans you need 4 Annosets and only 1 Layerset

 

Same thing for Floor Plans.  You only need one Architectural Floor Plan Layerset, one for Structural, etc.

I only use 3 different scales for Floor Plans (1/8", 1/4" & 1/2") but I have Architectural, Structural, Electrical, etc.

 

For Architectural Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

For Structural Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

For Electrical Plans I need 3 Annosets and 1 Layerset

 

Annosets specify the Defaults that control the size of Annotations

Layersets specify what's displayed - and anything that you don't want to adhere to Defaults.

[dshall]

I do not understand Joe's approach. Does anybody else get if ? If Joe is correct, I have been missing something.

If Joe is correct, maybe a workshop will help me understand.

[Kbird1]

Thanks Joe appreciate it....

 

also for those  interested Terry Munson (of Chief Apprentice)  has a Tip on his new website on Annosets too , look under Tips if this link doesn't show it , also in PDF.

 

http://www.munsonhomedesign.com/News-or-Reviews.html

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott, 

 

Show me your Layerset for a case where the Layerset is scale specific.

 

What Layers do not use the Defaults?

Are your Annosets all scale specific?

 

IOW, do you have your Annosets using the correct Default Settings per scale for:

   Dimensions

   Rich Text

   Text

   Callouts

   Markers

   Arrows

 

and do your Layersets stick with the Defaults for Text Style?

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott,

 

If you want to do a workshop........

 

Let's see if we can set up a convenient time.  The next week is pretty jammed but the following week I can make some time - let me know.

[DRAWZILLA]

As far as the # of anno-sets, I have added about 4 to what was already given us and that's all I use. Speaking of drawing in color, that's what I

also do but you have to beware of the color you use b/c in grayscale some colors will print too light so you need to darken every color you use to

get it correctly in the plan. Then it will pop for you.

[Joe_Carrick]

Perry,

 

1.  Do you use almost exclusively 1/4" scale?

 

2.  Do you do much in the way of Interior Elevations?

 

3.  Do you select the Annoset and then separately select the Layerset and Current CAD Layer?

 

If you answered yes to #1 and no to #2 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

If you answered yes to #3 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

[CAmichael240114]

I totally agree with dishall. I have and use many different annosets for site, floor plans, cross sections and CAD details etc.

When detailing the various plans It would be simplier to select the layerset and then select the annoset requied

This would eliminate the need to have; for example - site plan 1:100, drainage plan 1:100, floor plan set 1:100, roof plan set 1:100, steel plan set 1:100, electrical set 1:100 and so on.

In total I have 11 annosets for just the 1:100 scale not to mention the other scales 

[Joe_Carrick]

So, using your scenario you would:

 

1.  Select a Layerset

2.  Select a CAD Layer

3.  Select a generic Scale Annoset (1:100)

4.  Select the Dimension Defautls that go with your Layerset

 

Current system option:

 

1.  Select a generic Scale Annnoset (1:100)

2.  Select a Layerset

3.  Select a CAD Layer

4.  Select the Dimension Defautls that go with your Layerset

 

My method and what you are doing at this time:

 

1.  Select a Scale and Discipline specific Annoset

     Current CAD Layer and Layerset and all Defaults are automatically as they should be.

 

There are many possible ways of getting to the same point.

[DRAWZILLA]

Perry,

 

1.  Do you use almost exclusively 1/4" scale?

yes except for sections and interior elevations

 

2.  Do you do much in the way of Interior Elevations?

yes, kitchens and baths, use a custom wall detail anno-set for those

 

3.  Do you select the Annoset and then separately select the Layerset and Current CAD Layer?

I always select the anno-set first and that automatically brings up the layerset I need

 

If you answered yes to #1 and no to #2 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

If you answered yes to #3 then I understand your lack of need for more annosets

Chief gives us most of the anno-sets I use but, of course I have many more layersets for different things like reference sets, I have 8 extra reference sets

[Joe_Carrick]

As an alternative system, what about the following:

 

1.  Move Current CAD Layer from the Annoset dbx to the Layerset dbx.

2.  Move Dimension Defaults -> Locate Objects from the Annoset dbx to the Layerset dbx

3.  Add Annoset to the Layerset dbx

4.  Remove Layerset from the Annoset dbx

 

So the Annoset would only set the Defaults for Dimensions, Ridh Text, Text, Callouts, Markers & Arrows.  The Layerset would control everything related to the Display and the settings for CAD Layer and Locate Objects for Dimensioning.

 

This would essentially eliminate the need for any Annoset other than those for different scales.  It would mean that Layersets would be needed for each scale of each drawing type, but for most drawing types there are a maximum of 3-4 scales and in many cases only 1 scale. 

 

Then, if all those settings in Defaults were changed so that they were independent of scale (IOW - Paper Space Sizes) then the Annosets could be eliminated altogether.

 

Maybe Doug would like to comment on the above  

[dshall]

......

1.  Move Current CAD Layer from the Annoset dbx to the Layerset dbx.

.........

 

I have no clue what you are talking about.  Are you talking about what CA should do to change the process,  or are you suggesting that we can already do this and we should make the change?

 

Does not matter,  I will do a workshop and maybe the attendees will explain to me what I may be missing.

 

Bottom line,  I like the system with the exception of what should be king......  ANNO SETS or LAYER SETS,  I think they should change the system from anno sets being king to layer sets being king.

[Joe_Carrick]

Scott,

 

See the Poll I posted in the suggestions forum.  FWIW, in the Annoset dbx there is the setting for Current CAD Layer which sets what layer CAD objects will be created on.  I like this because it makes it possible to create basic CAD Objects (Lines, Arcs, Rectangles, etc) on a specific Layer depending on what type of drawing I'm working on.  However, it's not a scale issue and as such I don't think it should be controled by Layerset vs Annoset.

 

IAE, I agree with you that a modification of the system should be undertaken to make Layersets KING and in fact eliminate Annosets entirely.

[dshall]

.......... I agree with you that a modification of the system should be undertaken to make Layersets KING and in fact eliminate Annosets entirely.

 

Yes,  I agree with this,  but eliminating anno sets isn't necessary,  leaving annosets does give more options......  however with the process I currently use,  I have no problem keeping or eliminating annosets........  using anno sets and layer sets is not confusing,  what is confusing is defining what is important to maximize the versatility of their usage....... and what I just wrote can be very confusing and is not very clear......  

 

......  hey CA,  you did a good job,  the only change I advocate is to make layer sets KING..........  

 

......  one final note......  what we are talking about cannot be fully debated on this forum,  it would take a real time meeting with those that are interested to discuss the pros and cons of which is the best method.

[lbuttery]

Hmmm, Doug's concept of anno-sets doesn't match the methods being recommended

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/index.php?/topic/739-layer-set-and-anno-set-relationships/

POST #13, #26, #54

 

perhaps Joe or Scott should call Doug and have a conversation of how CA envisions anno-sets

 

it would probably be best to ask Doug to explain CA's concept

before getting into how to change that concept

 

I suspect CA won't be in any hurry to get rid of them

 

I'm feeling like a "Gumby" right now

 

"MY BRAIN HURTS !!!"

 

Lew

[ebdesign]

"I do not think the anno set should trigger the layer set, I think the layer set should trigger the anno set. If this was the case, there would be fewer anno sets."

Scott,

Welcome back from the dark side.

Double-click the layout view & the plan opens in the correct layer set & the correct anno set; It doesn't get much simpler than that. That is how I work once the heavy-duty annotating has begun.

I think of my layer sets as 3 different (but overlapping) types: layer sets for the construction documents (layout views) which are pretty much locked in stone, working layer sets (which I change the display properties as needed) & viewing layer sets (section, elevation & 3D cameras).

Since annotation is not possible in 3D cameras, no need whatsoever for anno sets there........... When I'm primarily modeling, I'm in the working layer sets w/ the 1/4" anno set active the vast majority of the time. The limited amount of annotation that is done (auto-dimensioning, etc) while modeling goes on the desired layer.

There is a simple tool to change the current CAD layer. I don't know if it is part of the OOB toolbars in Chief, but that is how I change the current CAD layer. i use that frequently. There is no need to go into the Anno Sets dbx to change the current CAD layer.

And then, why is the anno set/layer set debate always one way or the other. Why can't it work both ways. Pick a layer set, you get an anno set w/ it. Pick an anno set, get a layer set w/ it. Why can't it work both ways?

[HumbleChief]

...Why can't it work both ways. Pick a layer set, you get an anno set w/ it. Pick an anno set, get a layer set w/ it. Why can't it work both ways?

 

Yeah why can't it work both ways?

[Joe_Carrick]

It could work both ways.  But IMNSHO Annosets are a silly way to deal with non-scale graphics (printed text size, etc.).  With a fairly simple amount of programming the Defaults for these things could be changed to be specified in "Paper aka Print" size.  Once that's done, there is absolutely no need for Annosets and also no need for separate Defaults for different scales.

 

This is a classic case of LESS IS MORE!

 

Wouldn't it be great if we could simply select a Layerset and have everything standardized.  As an example:

 

Select a Layerset - Just the Layers we want displayed and all Annotation Defaulted to 1/8" Chief Blueprint, etc.

We would have only 1 set of Defaults for each type of Annotation Object, very few Layersets, no Annosets.