Problem with Different Ceiling heights in open floor plan

[StudConstruction]

After adding an extension to an existing home I ran into an issue with the ceiling heights in the now open floor plan being different. I went to universally adjust them but it raises the entire problem rather than leveling them out. I'm getting the message "Ceiling values may not be changed as the floor above this room has varying heights. Has anyone encountered this? How should I go about fixing this issue? Thanks.

[DRAWZILLA]

Is this a 2 story plan, if so adjust the floor height on the 2nd floor.

[dshall]

I swear,  if you post the  plan,  you will get more answers than you want.....  just post  your plan please.......  

 

[yusuf-333]

There is nothing wrong with the message, obviously there is height diference between a two or more rooms above the room you are trying to alter the ceiling height. There is no way that chief can give you an active cell to input a value for ceiling in that specific room. Though not sure what you want, but would ask 

1- do you need to keep the level difference of the upper rooms floor levels? Try to think logically based on how chief works!! That will lead you to solutions

2- do you want to assign floors of each room to have the same ceiling and floor heights?

If so, rest to defaults regarding cieling heights, wall top and bottom heights etc

Any way clarify your need and you will get exact answers for what ever scenario you need to have.

 

Post plans...post plan ...post plan

[StudConstruction]

It is a two story plan I've tried doing that but I think because the addition on the first floor extends further into the backyard than the second floor this is where the problem begins.

 

I tried uploading the .plan(x6) file but I was getting a 200 error code. 

[HumbleChief]

1 hour ago, yusuf-333 said:

Try to think logically based on how chief works!! That will lead you to solutions

I know you are trying to be helpful as always Yusuf but that's hilarious. Chief does not work logically but I think you might have meant to say try and think like the programmers at Chief think. The (logical?) paradigm Chief uses is to set lower floor ceiling heights by setting the floor heights of the room above. If you want to raise those lower floor ceiling heights, do not try and change those ceiling heights, which might seem logical but not the way Chief works, instead go upstairs and raise the floors of the rooms above. The plan will help of course but that might help you a bit.

[lbuttery]

Kurt:

 

did you zip the plan first ?

 

be sure to close the plan before zipping

 

Lew

[StudConstruction]

2 hours ago, lbuttery said:

did you zip the plan first ?

 

 

I did not! Thank you very much that seemed to work.

 

3 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

instead go upstairs and raise the floors of the rooms above. The plan will help of course but that might help you a bit.

 

I tried this but to no avail.  It just pulls the same problem up by "x" inches...

WORKINGProposed1_Shreeve.zip

[StudConstruction]

30 minutes ago, solver said:

The problem is with the 2nd floor covered porch. Make it Unspecified, and the message goes away.

 

 

I was unable to replicate this result. Here are my steps:

1. double click balcony to display specific room settings.

2. Change room type to "unspecified"

3. View room from floor below = no change

4. Edit Floor Defaults while on second floor = no Change

5. Edit Ceiling Defaults while on first floor = no Change

 

What am I doing wrong? Thanks for your help!

UPDATED-WORKINGProposed1_Shreeve.zip

[RL-inc]

Larry- I actually think that the real way to look at it is that the ceiling below and the floor above are essentially one and the same.

The joists that create that structure are providing both the upper floor and lower ceiling framing so CA is seeing it in the real world application IMO.

(We may be saying the same thing but just in a different way.)

[yusuf-333]

6 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

I know you are trying to be helpful as always Yusuf but that's hilarious. Chief does not work logically but I think you might have meant to say try and think like the programmers at Chief think. The (logical?) paradigm Chief uses is to set lower floor ceiling heights by setting the floor heights of the room above. If you want to raise those lower floor ceiling heights, do not try and change those ceiling heights, which might seem logical but not the way Chief works, instead go upstairs and raise the floors of the rooms above. The plan will help of course but that might help you a bit.

Larry 
I can see what you are overlooking some thing, when it comes to chiefs structure dbx. I often see confusions posted by users regarding how chief handles floor and ceiling heights. 
I would encourage you to stay calm and look deeply the way chief is handling levels of multistorey structures and split levels, I can assure you it is very nice and logical logical indeed. Perhaps the best way I can think of.

I advise you to drop the preconception of the room paradigm you oversee every time you open the structure dbx, try to shift thoughts, so that you first see that you are dealing with levels, not rooms. As we open the structure dbx, it envites us to input various paramemeters in relation to three levels that gives us the gap(2 rooms one above the other). The major level being the middle one or in other words floor level C, which is affected by upper and lower levels the ceiling heights relative to it.

Perceiving this way will help you understand why chief has given us the absolute and relative heights in the structure dbx.  the logic that Chief deals with the relation ships between LEVELS in the structure box is very logical in my opinion "FORGET ABOUT ROOMS, FLOORS AND CIELINGS HERE" think about levels instead.

Well, let me ask.

How do you control your dimensions in floor plan? Assume you are drawing 5 rooms side by side. Start from left and click on the first Interior wall, see dimensions appear on both sides. You can move it from both directions depending on the existing conditions and limitations. you go your way to fix dimensions of each room and always make adjustments to the adjacent rooms. The same thing, the difference is that it is Z( vertical). If you change the layers and thickness of walls, it affects both rooms or may be the exterior layer matters. Wall thickness increase relative to exterior sides of walls. The same thing when you deal with floor and cieling structures

Absolutes affect floor levels and the relatives also have an impact on the overall heights, as well as in  between each other. We need to understand what should be what and how it is related to the adjescent levels. I can't think an easier an more logical way to do this, but I could be wrong.

I don't know how much clear is my writing, but hopefully you understand the point I am trying to make.

By the way I am not good at English. Yesterday I was asked to write the past tense of think, and I thought ....thought and thought and Finally ended up writing  "thinked"

 

[glennw]

Yusuf,

 

Just to add a little to what you have said.

It is quiet possible to change the floor/ceiling heights in a section view (similar to changing room sizes in a floor plan).

Make sure Select Room Before Wall in 3D and Temporary Dimensions are toggled on.

Generate a cross section.

Select a room and you will see its floor/ceiling platforms and a ceiling height dimension.

You can drag the floor or ceiling up or down and see what is happening.

Although you can't use the Temp Dimension to move the platforms accurately, you can start dragging and use Tab and specify a Distance to move.

Making these changes in section may make it easier to see what is going on instead of trying to change horizontal platforms (floors and ceilings) in a floor plan. 

 

[HumbleChief]

12 hours ago, RL-inc said:

Larry- I actually think that the real way to look at it is that the ceiling below and the floor above are essentially one and the same.

The joists that create that structure are providing both the upper floor and lower ceiling framing so CA is seeing it in the real world application IMO.

(We may be saying the same thing but just in a different way.)

Do you think there's 'real' way to look at anything in Chief? I think Chief's floor structure paradigm is, in general, quite confusing as the posts in this thread attest. And yes the ceiling above and the floor below are the same thing but build a 2 story structure and spec a ceiling structure for floor 1, and a different floor structure for floor 2. The ceiling structure of floor 1 is completely ignored and the framing is based entirely on the floor structure of floor (level) 2. Logical? Maybe. Why is the ceiling structure of floor 1 ignored? I dunno but if you don't learn that simple but obscure method within Chief then you'll waist a lot of time trying to get both structures the same when it's not needed..

[HumbleChief]

11 hours ago, yusuf-333 said:

Larry 
I can see what you are overlooking some thing, when it comes to chiefs structure dbx. I often see confusions posted by users regarding how chief handles floor and ceiling heights. 
I would encourage you to stay calm and look deeply the way chief is handling levels of multistorey structures and split levels, I can assure you it is very nice and logical logical indeed. Perhaps the best way I can think of.

I advise you to drop the preconception of the room paradigm you oversee every time you open the structure dbx, try to shift thoughts, so that you first see that you are dealing with levels, not rooms. As we open the structure dbx, it envites us to input various paramemeters in relation to three levels that gives us the gap(2 rooms one above the other). The major level being the middle one or in other words floor level C, which is affected by upper and lower levels the ceiling heights relative to it.

Perceiving this way will help you understand why chief has given us the absolute and relative heights in the structure dbx.  the logic that Chief deals with the relation ships between LEVELS in the structure box is very logical in my opinion "FORGET ABOUT ROOMS, FLOORS AND CIELINGS HERE" think about levels instead.

Well, let me ask.

How do you control your dimensions in floor plan? Assume you are drawing 5 rooms side by side. Start from left and click on the first Interior wall, see dimensions appear on both sides. You can move it from both directions depending on the existing conditions and limitations. you go your way to fix dimensions of each room and always make adjustments to the adjacent rooms. The same thing, the difference is that it is Z( vertical). If you change the layers and thickness of walls, it affects both rooms or may be the exterior layer matters. Wall thickness increase relative to exterior sides of walls. The same thing when you deal with floor and cieling structures

Absolutes affect floor levels and the relatives also have an impact on the overall heights, as well as in  between each other. We need to understand what should be what and how it is related to the adjescent levels. I can't think an easier an more logical way to do this, but I could be wrong.

I don't know how much clear is my writing, but hopefully you understand the point I am trying to make.

By the way I am not good at English. Yesterday I was asked to write the past tense of think, and I thought ....thought and thought and Finally ended up writing  "thinked"

 

Yusuf, your posts and your attitude on this forum are very refreshing and I appreciate them and your great energy very much. Having said that the fact that you just posted 3 or 4 paragraphs on how to think of Chief and the way it works 'logically' more than makes my point. There's a logic to Chief no doubt, but one that does not come to hand immediately - it has to be learned which may make it 'logical' to some and crazy making to others. I am firmly in the latter camp.

 

I always built from the bottom up and took that 'logic' to Chief and was thoroughly trounced by Chief's alternative 'logic'. I thought the 'logic' that the ceiling structure of floor 1 would have an effect on the ceiling framing of floor one on a 2 story building and was once again trounced by Chief's 'logic'. So is Chief's version of creating structures 'logical'? Of course it is - to the designers of the software. But that may or may not translate to the user or the user interface and in Chief's case I think they missed the UI boat in many cases. Remember these are the same folks who gave us a new feature of poly line area labels that resolved to 7 decimal places - making it completely useless - as a new feature no less (remains the same to this day BTW). Perhaps that same 'logic' is placed in too many places in Chief's UI or I just don't get Chief's version of logic.

 

Had another thought. If the way you've explained Chief's paradigm is indeed 'correct', knowing 'correct' is quite a subjective term, then where is this clear explanation of how Chief's structure dialog box should be viewed in Chief's literature and or training videos? Or even the structure dbx itself? There are many users who don't understand it and many that do but the 'logic' you present is not part of Chief's training or instruction - and should be IMO. 

[HumbleChief]

10 hours ago, glennw said:

Yusuf,

 

Just to add a little to what you have said.

It is quiet possible to change the floor/ceiling heights in a section view (similar to changing room sizes in a floor plan).

Make sure Select Room Before Wall in 3D and Temporary Dimensions are toggled on.

Generate a cross section.

Select a room and you will see its floor/ceiling platforms and a ceiling height dimension.

You can drag the floor or ceiling up or down and see what is happening.

Although you can't use the Temp Dimension to move the platforms accurately, you can start dragging and use Tab and specify a Distance to move.

Making these changes in section may make it easier to see what is going on instead of trying to change horizontal platforms (floors and ceilings) in a floor plan. 

 

That's a great tip Glenn. BTW it doesn't work with a back clipped cross section but the visual is very helpful.

[glennw]

35 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

BTW it doesn't work with a back clipped cross section

Larry,

It does if the clipping plane goes beyond the back wall of the room you are in - you need the back wall to select the room.

So it's not really a function that's missing from the back clipped cross section.

[HumbleChief]

Just now, glennw said:

Larry,

It does if the clipping plane goes beyond the back wall of the room you are in - you need the back wall to select the room.

So it's not really a function that's missing from the back clipped cross section.

Good to know, thanks as always.

[glennw]

I forgot to mention that you can also snap the floor of ceiling platforms to other platforms, or you can draw a cad line at a particular height and snap a platform to the cad line. You can also open the rooms dbx from the section and adjust any of the values in the normal manner.

It's really just like manipulating the graphical section on the Structure tab which has been requested for years 

 

[HumbleChief]

39 minutes ago, glennw said:

I forgot to mention that you can also snap the floor of ceiling platforms to other platforms, or you can draw a cad line at a particular height and snap a platform to the cad line. You can also open the rooms dbx from the section and adjust any of the values in the normal manner.

It's really just like manipulating the graphical section on the Structure tab which has been requested for years 

 

Yeah I'm seeing some great possibilities with this technique. I tried it on a test plan and was amazed to see how Chief actually works - graphically - nice tip. Maybe post that in the tips and techniques section? I think it is worthy and thanks again.

 

I'm posting a vid in the Tips and Techniques section. If anyone wants to elaborate or correct my interpretation - more than welcome.

 

 

[lbuttery]

Quote

 

I advise you to drop the preconception of the room paradigm you oversee every time you open the structure dbx

 

but as far as I know and have read Chief does think in "rooms" ???

 

I'm with Larry - if I am working on a room I want the changes to affect that room

I shouldn't have to go to room B to make changes to room A

 

just isn't logical or user friendly

 

can the "correct" method be learned - sure - but it is counter-intuitive

and that is guaranteed to mess with the head

 

Lew

[HumbleChief]

37 minutes ago, solver said:

 

Go to Edit>Reset to Defaults

 

Select All Floors, Floor and Ceiling Heights.

Had no idea that feature was there - thanks Eric.

[DRAWZILLA]

And exactly where does it get its defaults from, Framing defaults , floor defaults, the new floors and rooms defaults,(rooms, floor and ceiling, current floor.) I would like to know exactly which defaults matter. It's nice to have the new custom rooms defaults, but when some are on a mono slab and some are a raised floor, it's difficult to manage when you have pre-defined rooms. especially using 2 or 3 floors. Maybe you have a family room on the 1st and 2nd floors. the way I see it you would have to create 3 different sets of custom rooms, 1 for raised floor on the 1st, 1 for slab floors on the 1st, and the same amount for 2nd floors As we all know bedrooms are on every floor. It is so much easier to just  do it manually. I tried this new tool but find myself fixing the floor system manually every time, so why have it. The list could get very big creating custom rooms for every condition.  By the way, I always set my defaults prior to naming rooms, but when you use the new tool, it changes the default floors to whatever you saved that room as,and I have to do it manually, I don't think I'll use that feature now, it causes more time to use it than not. Some more thought needed on that tool.

 

 

[RL-inc]

Glenn-

Thanks for the tip on adjusting floor and ceiling heights in section- never knew and can't wait to implement that technique.

[RL-inc]

Larry and Lewis-

While I agree that the way CA's structure tab can be confusing the fact is that the changes made in room "A" most often have great effect on room "B" if they are located on adjacent floors and at least partially aligned- which is a very common condition in residential construction.

 

IMO CA is just offering the "reaction to the action" in most cases.

 

[javatom]

Glenn,  Just when I think I know every trick there is about this program, you came up with one I did not know about.  Adjusting floor heights in section view could be very useful at times.  Thanks.