Changing floor level of one room changes them all

[AgChief]

On previous versions of this remodel, I've been able to drop the floor of the existing "Sunken Family Room" 5-1/2" and the other floors would remain at the proper "0" level. The clients have massively changed the plan, including moving the garage toward the front of the house, requiring that it be dropped 24" due to site conditions. After finally getting the garage to remain at 24" and stepping the rear porch appropriately down to the garage floor, I can't lower the Sunken Family Room floor down 5-1/2" without all the other rooms also dropping 5-1/2". I guess somewhere in the process I've set a default setting that I'm unaware of, maybe? I'm at a loss.

FloorLevels.plan

[jbaehmer]

Post a plan so we can check it out for you.

[AgChief]

just noticed the plan didn't upload, let me try again.....

[AgChief]

Thanks, Eric, that seemed to be the trick.  I need to study up more on floor levels and foundations.

[Richard_Morrison]

We had another one like this posted recently. You WANT monolithic slabs, I think. The issue is that you have "Floor supplied by room below" for all rooms. Use the Match and Apply tool to get these unchecked. What is happening is that you have a single foundation room below. When you lower a floor, it changes the floor elevation height below. (I don't know how many times we have to scream about this before Chief perceives this as a problem. Some people currently think it's just "user error." Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Perry. lol)

[DRAWZILLA]

I would call that user error, for sure, that box should have never been checked like you say.

[Richard_Morrison]

I would call that user error, for sure, that box should have never been checked like you say.

Yes, that's a problem. But the big problem is that the stem wall height is not dynamic relative to the floors and easily screws everything up; with the result that the footings can be jumping up and down behind your back. I have made a little 60 sec. video to demonstrate this.

[glennw]

Richard,

 

That is definitely user error.

When you raise the floor 6", the stem wall increases in height to 24" (the default 18" + the 6"), because you haven't told Chief to do anything else, the footing stays where it is and the stem wall increases in height to 24".

Then, when you change the floor height back to zero, the stem wall height remains at 24", therefore it is lower than originally by 6". ie, the stem wall remains 24" high and drops 6" with the floor. 

When you change the floor back to zero, you also need to control the stem wall height by manually changing it back to 18", or check default if that is 18".

 

How does Chief know when you do and don't want to actually change the stem wall height? 

You have to tell Chief what you want.

[Richard_Morrison]

Richard,

 

That is definitely user error.

When you raise the floor 6", the stem wall increases in height to 24" (the default 18" + the 6"), because you haven't told Chief to do anything else, the footing stays where it is and the stem wall increases in height to 24".

Then, when you change the floor height back to zero, the stem wall height remains at 24", therefore it is lower than originally by 6". ie, the stem wall remains 24" high and drops 6" with the floor. 

When you change the floor back to zero, you also need to control the stem wall height by manually changing it back to 18", or check default if that is 18".

 

How does Chief know when you do and don't want to actually change the stem wall height? 

You have to tell Chief what you want.

 

Yes, I know how to fix it. But the point is that I almost always want the stem wall to change; I seldom want the footing elevation to change, unless I explicitly request this. Why should the stem wall height be automatically changed if I raise the floor, but fixed if I lower the floor? Why would Chief assume this? This is just counterintuitive, not typical building practice, and wasn't this way until a couple of versions ago.

[mtldesigns]

Ok.  On the same topic.  My client bought CA to design his own house and got way to deep into before he ended up hiring me to clean, fix and finalize his model.  His default ceiling height (first floor) is 10' (121.125").  In his family room it steps down 16", giving a ceiling height of 137.125".  He wants to lower this ceiling 12" now so he can tray it.  With a room above this room, and a room below, HOW!  When I change "E" or "F", Floor Above "A" moves, even with default checked (becomes unchecked once you modify any height)

 

I would like to post the model, but I cannot do without his permission.  Any ideas on how to this from all you experts?

[michaelgia]

Ok. On the same topic. My client bought CA to design his own house and got way to deep into before he ended up hiring me to clean, fix and finalize his model. His default ceiling height (first floor) is 10' (121.125"). In his family room it steps down 16", giving a ceiling height of 137.125". He wants to lower this ceiling 12" now so he can tray it. With a room above this room, and a room below, HOW! When I change "E" or "F", Floor Above "A" moves, even with default checked (becomes unchecked once you modify any height)

I would like to post the model, but I cannot do without his permission. Any ideas on how to this from all you experts?

While you can adjust the ceiling height and/or draw a ceiling plane I usually take the sloppy route and just draw in a p-solid. That way I can cut a hole in it to make a coffered ceiling and add crown molding etc...

If you adjust ceiling heights don't forget to close off your room by way of invisible walls so you get room definition. I used to make this mistake a lot and wondered why the program changes all the ceiling height for the entire floor.

I mean, can't Chief read my mind?

lol

[lbuttery]

this was one of the reasons I advocated for room locks along with wall and roof and floor etc

 

if I had taken time to get various rooms all set the way they needed to be

 

then made a change in another room and all the other rooms were affected that would NOT be good

 

with the lock I would at least get a warning that they were going to be changed

 

I could then decide to proceed or not

 

Lew

[dshall]

Yes, that's a problem. But the big problem is that the stem wall height is not dynamic relative to the floors and easily screws everything up; with the result that the footings can be jumping up and down behind your back. I have made a little 60 sec. video to demonstrate this.

 

I hate to admit this,  but I did not fully understand this.  Thank you Richard for the vid.  I agree with Richard,  it seems like the bottom of the footing should remain static.  If I change the elevation of the floor,  why would I want the elevation of the bottom of the footing to change in elevation?  I want the bottom of the footing to remain static and defined by the depth of footing relative to whatever floor elevation I have defined for level zero.

 

IOW,  the height of the stem wall is defined by the defined floor level of level zero and the level of the floor at level one.  This should take precedence over whatever I had defined the stem wall height to be.

[Richard_Morrison]

I'm proposing two rules for foundations building here, the bottom line of which is "floor elevations control everything":

 

1) Top of footings can never be moved higher than the bottom of the foundation floor elevation. (This is the way it USED to be.)

 

2) Changing stem walls heights can push footings lower (or up to the bottom of the foundation floor), but can NEVER force the foundation floor elevation up.

 

In other words, stem walls are a calculated distance, or if explicitly entered, a way to move footings down. They should NEVER move a floor elevation.

[dshall]

I'm proposing two rules for foundations building here, the bottom line of which is "floor elevations control everything":

 

1) Top of footings can never be higher than the bottom of the foundation floor elevation. (This is the way it USED to be.)

 

2) Changing stem walls heights can push footings lower, but can NEVER force the foundation floor elevation up.

 

In other words, stem walls are a calculated distance, or if explicitly entered, a way to move footings down. They should NEVER move a floor elevation.

 

 

Another great comment.

[dshall]

Here is a situation that is auto.   But wait,  I would prefer the upper floor to SIT ON STEM WALL.................  as shown,  the upper floor HANGS ON STEM WALL.

 

I would like to have an option that the lower floor HANGS ON STEM WALL and the upper floor SITS  ON STEM WALL.  

 

As it is now,  both floors HANG off of the stem wall.

 

 

[DRAWZILLA]

Remember the rule when adjusting floors is to start from the top down including the foundation level.

[DRAWZILLA]

On a raised floor situation, I always use a dirt floor (just a 1/16" dirt level for the ground,) move the dirt floor up and down and the footing goes with it and it will give you a line where the dirt is. Just like a floor /ceiling in the underfloor access area.

[HumbleChief]

Of course it's user error but whether it's user error or not seems a silly argument IMO. Once a user knows how Chief works it's pretty easy to figure out - it's the 'knowing how Chief works' which can be difficult to intuit. The example Richard give clearly shows how Chief works so anyone who doesn't know this behavior will think there's something wrong with Chief but it's 'user error' because the user has to understand Chief's behavior. Is it the user or Chief's behavior?

 

I would have thought that raising the floor then lowering it back to its original location would have kept the footing in the same location like it would in the field but Chief has shown time and time again it works nothing like buildings do in the field. Like working floors from the top down. You would never do this in the field but Chief has decided that this is the paradigm that works with their software. If you don't get this backasswards way of thinking then once again it's 'user error' but it really is an error in the paradigm Chief has decided upon IMO.

 

Fine, now the users who don't know you need to work floors from the top down (seems weird even typing it) - which is every new user to Chief - has to learn this as well as many other idosynchracies that don't make intuitive sense or behave like buildings do in the real world. Fine again and not really a big deal as all software programs are difficult but every time Chief has an opportunity to make things more intuitive they seem go the other way.

[HumbleChief]

On a raised floor situation, I always use a dirt floor (just a 1/16" dirt level for the ground,) move the dirt floor up and down and the footing goes with it and it will give you a line where the dirt is. Just like a floor /ceiling in the underfloor access area.

That's a great idea Perry.

[DRAWZILLA]

Scott you looking for this? You just adjust the footing separately. A little adjustment and you got it.

[dshall]

Scott you looking for this? You just adjust the footing separately. A little adjustment and you got it.

 

No,  that is not what I am looking for.  I am looking for the upper floor level to SIT ON STEM WALL,  NOT HANG.  

 

That is not what you show.  You show the  upper floor HANGING OFF OF STEM WALL.

[lbuttery]

Larry:

 

it's called being "user friendly"

 

if the software design "encourages" user error

time and again with user after user

then it is really a "software error"

 

Lew

[dshall]

On a raised floor situation, I always use a dirt floor (just a 1/16" dirt level for the ground,) move the dirt floor up and down and the footing goes with it and it will give you a line where the dirt is. Just like a floor /ceiling in the underfloor access area.

 

That is the way I thought it worked........

 

Maybe I am doing something wrong.  I can get the footing to do down,  but I can't get it to come back up.

 

https://youtu.be/yBUXHxw1_XY

[DRAWZILLA]

No,  that is not what I am looking for.  I am looking for the upper floor level to SIT ON STEM WALL,  NOT HANG.  

 

That is not what you show.  You show the  upper floor HANGING OFF OF STEM WALL.

I got it now, no you can't do it automatically, but it can be done manually fairly easy