DRAWZILLA Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yes I have always had shadows on in previews, my video card can handle it pretty easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_Park Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 It looks like the line generation accounts for part of the overhead of opening a 3D view. I don't know why saving is so much slower. It isn't something that seems normal. You might try defragmentting your disk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Microsoft tells us that in windows 8.1 ,you don't need to defrag, it's automatic. Is that your understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_Park Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 More or less, but I have observed that in some cases SSD drives won't automatically defrag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 P. can't you send the plan to tech and between the two of you guys come to some agreement that either the plan is slower or faster in X7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I have done that in the past and They don't see any slowing at all. Did a long time ago. For me, it's every plan so it's not plan specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 More or less, but I have observed that in some cases SSD drives won't automatically defrag. Thanks, Doug, I'll have to check that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianBeck Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Perry, I put a stopwatch to your video to check the speed and while it is difficult to tell exactly when you started I did an average of 3 different timings on each version and found that X7 is about a half second faster than X6 in your video. I timed X7 at ~6.4 seconds and X6 at ~6.95 seconds. In looking at the issue with the camera not disappearing as quickly, I do see the problem but it almost looks like this might be a perception issue. In X6 the screen would actually blink\flash and go blank briefly when closing the view. In X7 we got rid of the screen flash so the camera is on screen longer but the time for the view to actually close seems to be about the same. As for the saving issue as Doug as said, it does seem likely this is related to something on your system as we have not been able to reproduce the issue. So far your case is the only one I know of where saving is slow,. If anyone else is seeing this please let us know. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Perry, I put a stopwatch to your video to check the speed and while it is difficult to tell exactly when you started I did an average of 3 different timings on each version and found that X7 is about a half second faster than X6 in your video. I timed X7 at ~6.4 seconds and X6 at ~6.95 seconds. In looking at the issue with the camera not disappearing as quickly, I do see the problem but it almost looks like this might be a perception issue. In X6 the screen would actually blink\flash and go blank briefly when closing the view. In X7 we got rid of the screen flash so the camera is on screen longer but the time for the view to actually close seems to be about the same. As for the saving issue as Doug as said, it does seem likely this is related to something on your system as we have not been able to reproduce the issue. So far your case is the only one I know of where saving is slow,. If anyone else is seeing this please let us know. Thanks. I just don't see or feel it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcaffee Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Benchmarking with a stopwatch; hmm? Interesting method. jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbird1 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Perry do a little research , perhaps things have chaned? but my understanding was that defragging SSD's was a bad idea due to wear and tear ,at least if done weekly as was the norm for HD in the Past. IIt maybe that when you cloned your OS that the align wasn't done correctly for the SSD since you cloned a HD , that can cause a slow down ... M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermot Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 We don't typically use a stop watch to time the program. Brian only used it to time Perry's video. It's not a very precise method but it certainly works much better then counting. To get more accurate timing, you can go into your preferences and turn on "Show Screen Redraw Time" in your status bar. You can do this in both X6 and X7 and compare the numbers. Timing can be very subjective unless you have an accurate method of measuring it. This is why we have tools built into the program which take much of the guess work out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Perry do a little research , perhaps things have chaned? but my understanding was that defragging SSD's was a bad idea due to wear and tear ,at least if done weekly as was the norm for HD in the Past. IIt maybe that when you cloned your OS that the align wasn't done correctly for the SSD since you cloned a HD , that can cause a slow down ... M. The only problem with that is X6 seems to work very fast on the same system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 We don't typically use a stop watch to time the program. Brian only used it to time Perry's video. It's not a very precise method but it certainly works much better then counting. To get more accurate timing, you can go into your preferences and turn on "Show Screen Redraw Time" in your status bar. You can do this in both X6 and X7 and compare the numbers. Timing can be very subjective unless you have an accurate method of measuring it. This is why we have tools built into the program which take much of the guess work out of it. Thanks , I'll give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_Park Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Perry do a little research , perhaps things have chaned? but my understanding was that defragging SSD's was a bad idea due to wear and tear ,at least if done weekly as was the norm for HD in the Past. IIt maybe that when you cloned your OS that the align wasn't done correctly for the SSD since you cloned a HD , that can cause a slow down ... M. While it is true that SSD read/write cycling can wear out in theory quicker than a hard disk. Under normal use, including occasional defragmentation, this translates into something like 10 years or more of useful life. This is a concern for a data center using SSD drives for servers but for the average consumer the drive will likely last longer than a typical hard disk. One manual defrag shouldn't hurt and in general nightly defrags should not be an issue. Of course a good backup is always a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Ok tried it with the timer on. The timer showed similar times but I really feel the timer didn't start counting when the button is pressed. Like when the Camera symbol stays on in plan view- wasn't counted b/c it showed a fraction of a second in time ,but the camera symbol stayed on for a couple of seconds more. Maybe the internal part was done but you don't see it till the camera symbol goes off. So the perception is ,that it takes longer. I'm also not sure when the timer starts and stops. It sure seems longer in X7 still.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyToo Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I sent a couple of short videos to TS earlier today that I feel clearly demonstrates the problem. I was informed they were being sent to the engineers for study. One focused on the undo-redo function, the other accessing materials (plan and library) from the object dbx. Both instances are consistent and predictable. I have found other operations in X7 similarly affected by this issue that are not as consistent or predictable, however. For example, clicking on an object to select it can result in a brief but noticeable delay of a second or so before it is actually selected by Chief...but not always. Ditto other operations. This makes it hard to document (and maybe to fix). We'll have to wait and see, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You should post them here also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyToo Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Perry, I have not posted the videos per Dermot's comment/request that "This is not something we [Chief] can diagnose on this forum. You need to work directly with tech support." I concur b/c all things being equal, that is, if the hardware (and any relevant settings) have not changed and the operator is performing similarly, then the issue (and the solution) resides in the software itself, especially considering the significant changes that were made "under the hood" in X7, which Dermot outlined earlier in this thread. Btw, I liken the slowness I am experiencing (which, as I said, can be quite random) to unexpected and unwanted speed bumps in the road, interrupting an otherwise steady work flow. So as brief as each single lag might be, cumulatively they contribute to a generally slower (and unpleasant) experience overall. Btw, I do note significant changes in the Render Tap in Preferences. Specifically, settings for Triangles, Smooth Faces, Use Transparencies and Use Enhanced Lighting were eliminated. Is any of this contributory??? X6 vs X7.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yep, I just wanted to see if I experience slowness in the same areas as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRAWZILLA Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Perry, I have not posted the videos per Dermot's comment/request that "This is not something we [Chief] can diagnose on this forum. You need to work directly with tech support." I concur b/c all things being equal, that is, if the hardware (and any relevant settings) have not changed and the operator is performing similarly, then the issue (and the solution) resides in the software itself, especially considering the significant changes that were made "under the hood" in X7, which Dermot outlined earlier in this thread. Btw, I liken the slowness I am experiencing (which, as I said, can be quite random) to unexpected and unwanted speed bumps in the road, interrupting an otherwise steady work flow. So as brief as each single lag might be, cumulatively they contribute to a generally slower (and unpleasant) experience overall. Btw, I do note significant changes in the Render Tap in Preferences. Specifically, settings for Triangles, Smooth Faces, Use Transparencies and Use Enhanced Lighting were eliminated. Is any of this contributory??? Yes, those were very good examples of slowness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 A programming trick I learned a long time ago - make something happen on the screen and the user will not think the system is slow. It all a matter of perception. Interestingly, a process that might take 3.0 seconds will appear to be fast if there is a screen update every 1/4 second - while in fact, the screen updates might mean that the process is now taking 3.2 seconds. The screen updates actually take some extra time but the user thinks it's much faster - and if asked might say it took less that 2 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanDearborn Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 While it is true that SSD read/write cycling can wear out in theory quicker than a hard disk. Under normal use, including occasional defragmentation, this translates into something like 10 years or more of useful life. This is a concern for a data center using SSD drives for servers but for the average consumer the drive will likely last longer than a typical hard disk. One manual defrag shouldn't hurt and in general nightly defrags should not be an issue. Of course a good backup is always a good idea. Hello For some reason I never post here, which is a bit ironic because I am a rather prolific poster elsewhere on the net. Perhaps it is because the questions I do have are always answered on the forum by the time I raise them. I am a very long time user of Chief, 1993? I migrated from AutoCad/Architectural Desktop a long time ago. Though I do keep a licensed copy of AutoCad around. I am essentially retired at this point. At one time had my own CAD business among other things. Now I use Chief simply for the pleasure it brings me. I love residential home design using Chief. 4930K CPU Asus X79 motherboard 32GB Ram R9-280X graphics card Samsung 850 Pro SSD 2TB 7200 HD Swiftech 240X watercooling - drops my rendering temps for all 6 cores at 100% well below 70C Chief X7 etc. A direct quote from Samsung's support site regarding SSD's and defragging: "Defragmentation is not required. Because SSDs have no moving parts, they can access any data location equally fast. You should disable automatic defragmentation on your computer. Frequently defragmenting your SSD will reduce its lifespan. Please visit the OS Optimization section of Samsung Magician for help disabling automatic defragmentation." As for Chief X7, I experienced a slight but perceptable slowdown from day 1 compared to X6. I tend to have fairly large drawing files well over 100GB. I wish I could be more specific, it is difficult to quantify or qualify the nature of the slow down. But I believe it is still there after the latest update. Would like to add that I for one consider "undo" a vital component of the software, but that is just me. Though one consequence with X7 is that I no longer preview with shadows on. Having said all that, the "slow downs" are minor and not across the board. I highly doubt that if I was back in a production environment it would be enough of a difference to warrant my concern. Again that is just me. But looking down the road, the overhead placed on the system by Chief is only going to increase and therefore I believe this issue needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_Park Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Certainly the primary reason for defragmenting a drive (seek time) is not an issue with SSD drives. However, there is still a data structure that needs to be traversed for each frament of a file so in theory there would be minor improvements. On my systems I have noticed some minor improvments when defragmenting an SSD. But in theory they don't need to be defragmeneted as frequently. Undo is a slow part of the program. We have been doing some work behind the scenes to get to a faster and reliable undo. The case where it is significantly slower in X7 is concerning. Since undo leverages the same code as our file save it is possible that slower saving and slow undo/redo may be related. Making this faster has been a goal of mine ever since I first made it work reliably many versions ago. Unfortunatey, the internal design of Chief did not start out in a way that made the logical ways of implmenting undo easy. We looked briefly at this for X7 but determined that for our release time frame it wasn't feasible. I can't promise anything for X8, but we do view this as a high priority. I am still puzzled by the slow save that Perry is having when saving. There is a bit of overhead for standard views that we didn't have in X6, which makes some operations faster in X7 as Perry demonstrated in his last video. I want to get to the bottom of these issues. I suspect that there isn't a single cause of the slowness. I looked briefly at the Material dialog. In my case it seemed like opening the library material dialog in X6 was significantly slower than in X7. And in the video it appears that the combined material dialog in X7 opens at about the same speed as the library material dialog opened. Having the two dialogs combined suffers from some slight extra overhead on open. There are at least some minor benefits of having both available, but we should probably look into how we can speed up the initial opening of the dialog. The undo case in X7 there are some differences in what you have open. It appears that you have a 3D view open in X7 but not in X6 which would make a difference as 3D data would need to be regenerated. Also, you have a toolbar floating in front of the view in X7 and not in X6 which probably doesn't affect the performance by much, but it might. It is tough to set up identical conditions for comparison as many things can affect the performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefer Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 need to check where my undo folder is, as it maybe on the Raid 1.2TB Data Drives. M. Chief's undo folder is in the Temporary File if you're using Windows. Type "%temp%" in search programs and files then press enter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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