Estimating from Material List?

[todd3drhd]

Hello, 

I am about to invest money into a new computer, upgrade to the new version (SSA over lapped) and build an office (starting up new business). The main thing I want to offer my customers is Estimating Materials (List). Is there anyone out there doing this with Chief Architect? If you are. How accurate do you find the program? How difficult is it to set up the build in order to calculate the materials? Can anyone offer me any tips or suggestions?

[robdyck]

1 hour ago, todd3drhd said:

Is there anyone out there doing this with Chief Architect? If you are. How accurate do you find the program? How difficult is it to set up the build in order to calculate the materials? Can anyone offer me any tips or suggestions?

Yes, I have, but not as much as some others. The program is perfectly accurate to the model you create. It is strictly an input-output equation. A somewhat useless material list is easy to create. A complex and accurate materials list is quite time-consuming and, in my experience, few customers have the foresight to pay for this information. If you offer it for free or next to free, then you may have some takers! The definition of a complex and accurate materials list could be debated, but all of my builder clients will not settle for the omission of all the items that Chief doesn't automatically produce. This means you either spend time putting more items in your model, or devising other methods to account for the components that don't automatically get produced.

Real efficiency in materials lists could be achieved through volume when working with a large home builder. But if you have multiple builders in multiple regions, there are so many variables to factor in that it becomes time consuming. Not impossible, at least if you could get paid for the same amount of time that their estimators would spend compiling the same information, but good luck with that. Perhaps in regions other than western Canada, builders are more interested.

[DeLayDesign]

Like @robdyckmentioned; Chief is fairly accurate with modeling and ultimately the quantities you may need of something.  If you set up a template a head of time with accurate pricing you could ultimately create a unique experience for clients where you could give them a general idea of cost and quantities.  My concern comes with additions as Chief's poly-box material calculator makes me anxious as to what I'm actually including in the material list.

I've done it a few times, just for general information but most contractors will/ should rely on their own take-offs for accurate buildability.  At least that's my opinion.  As a designer I will never take liability for a contractor's work.

[robdyck]

5 hours ago, DeLayDesign said:

My concern comes with additions

Layer assignment and modeling becomes especially important in this scenario. A brief example: Will a polyline materials list include an existing wall if the polyline runs partially through it? This requires that existing walls be on their own layer, not include in materials and preferably, without any framing. Or be prepared to weed that garden, over and over.

[joey_martin]

As others have said, it is doable. Here is my scenario...

 

No lumber. Chief makes my brain ache with lumber, so honestly, I don't even bother and my models are pretty accurate. I have a few builders that rely on my materials lists for siding, roofing, trim, flooring, casing, sheathing, doors, windows, cabinets....pretty much everything but lumber and fasteners. 

 

Now, as for lumber. Their lumber guys handle those take offs, and honestly that is the way to do it. Lumber is a commodity and unless you are going to update all those lumber numbers weekly in the master materials list, leave that to the lumber pro.

 

My honest assessment is, you can price a new home 80% right from your model, the other 20% is lumber, fasteners, caulk, plumbing, mech.

[todd3drhd]

I thank both of you. I do not know if you got my messages, but I appreciate your replies. I was thinking of keeping the estimating directly focused on the material (no pricing). I would leave the pricing up to the contractors. I know most contractors these days use framing crews (sub contractors) and sadly to say a lot of them are not the best. I was thinking of offering a Buy List Sheet and a Cut List sheet indicating what cuts should come from what board lengths. I am not sure how much work this will take on my part to accurately build these lists. Do you think I am looking at to much time in building the model? I am looking at Custom Builders that would appreciate this kind of detail information on their construction sites. Can the Model be detailed in the custom manner that I am looking to do.

[richoffan]

I think you've answered your own question...some of them are not the best. Providing MTOs as a guide for preliminary bids works fine. However it always comes with the "for preliminary estimate only - not for construction - verify in field" note. Have provided roofing, siding, DW etc many times - fairly straight forward. Providing a cut sheet and thinking "they" will follow it if you're not on site is wishful thinking. When the sticks are cut twice and they're still too short the headaches start. I'll provide a TO as a courtesy only. Strictly from a business standpoint it's a lot of work, a lot of responsibility / liability with no control and minimum payback.  

[todd3drhd]

Thank you for that wake up call. Your correct, I am trying to provide construction over site without being on the site.

[lbuttery]

I hear a good companion for Chief is Planswift 

 

https://www.planswift.com/

 

Lew

[robdyck]

I had one customer this spring ask for a lumber material list. He was especially concerned about budgeting due to the out of control lumber prices! So I produced a list to his exact specifications, which I know quite well because I subcontract framed for him for 10 years. I summarized the list and excluded certain board lengths to reduce the number of line items. If the list is too long, most people's eyes will glaze over before they've reviewed the first screen. I added in all the prices from his supplier for him and then sent him the materials list. 

Client response: "I'm not very impressed, I don't want to pay for this."

I'm attaching the list and the 3d model viewer. A note, in some places there appears to be a single board or hanger sitting by itself randomly. They are actually stacks of multiple items that have been replicated in the same location the correct # of times.

The trusses were not built to be part of the materials list, but in this home I actually needed to model trusses so I could figure out the major bearing components and also produce the correct type of additional roof framing lumber. The model isn't perfect, I only cleanup what is necessary.

https://3d-viewer.chiefarchitect.com/go?share=371420518625556

 

Sample Framing Material List.pdf

[todd3drhd]

Thank you Robert. I am thinking this is not worth my time. For one thing with Chief it seems like you have to go to several places to indicate the actual build of the walls. I would like to be able to build specifications in one may be two places and be done with it. I am going to have to give this some more thought. Again I appreciate you replying back. 

[joey_martin]

@todd3drhda solid template is the key. Walls, for instance, I have maybe 30 walls already set in my template so that I don't have to worry with such things. I come across an assembly every now and then, but 98% of the walls I and my builders use are already in my template. Same with schedules, common notes, etc. I took an entire work day when X14 came out just to focus on getting my template updated. Well worth the time.

[Crusader103]

I do not provide materials lists, as a rule.

 

I work with many builders but one in particular I've done probably 75-100 homes for, so I know just how he builds. We did a little test to see how practical it would be going forward - a service he'd be happy to pay for if it worked out. He was kind enough to give me the takeoffs that the lumber company and all other suppliers gave him based on several of my spec home plans. I designed the next plan (a straightforward neighborhood spec home) using those takeoffs as a guide. I didn't give him the materials list for the new one either but he did give me his based on the takeoff. It was nowhere near close (I'd say 70% and that's not good enough for me).

 

The amount of time it takes me to input all of that and generate a 70% takeoff (or more accurately, 30% deficient) is simply not worth it to me. Most suppliers are going to do their own anyway because if they are wrong, they want to be wrong for their own reasons. The lumber suppliers around here would never use a materials list generated by anyone but themselves.

 

When I combine that info with the practical knowledge of not always knowing who is going to build the plan, it's prohibitive to even try. Some builders use engineered trusses, some are stick framing, I've got guys using OSB, others using ZIP panels, some that will use CMU block with a 4" slab and others that are monolithic slab only. They use my plans but they have so many individual variations I couldn't keep up.

 

Recently, a customer just had to have a materials list. I warned him in advance and marked "For Estimating Purposes Only. Do Not Rely Upon." all over it. He sent me a text message telling me the materials list was not right and just about demanding that I redo it. I said no.

 

I provide all typical schedules and information. Materials lists and takeoffs are not a service I ever see the possibility of offering again.

 

On the other hand, if a builder asks me for the number of squares of roofing, how much LVP, carpet, etc., I can typically entertain that with reasonable accuracy to get them close.

 

 

[CARMELHILL]

On 12/3/2022 at 4:44 PM, robdyck said:

This requires that existing walls be on their own layer, not include in materials and preferably.

Older versions of Chief had this ability, to set certain layers to report to the material list. I think it was removed in X14.

[robdyck]

20 hours ago, CARMELHILL said:

Older versions of Chief had this ability, to set certain layers to report to the material list. I think it was removed in X14.

Hey Ed,

what Chief did was to consolidate that function into a single layer set, as opposed to having it's own check column for every layer set.

[CARMELHILL]

4 hours ago, robdyck said:

Hey Ed,

what Chief did was to consolidate that function into a single layer set, as opposed to having it's own check column for every layer set.

Thank you. I looked at the change briefly yesterday. I'm going to spend Friday goin through it on X15 and adding new layer sets into my templates. I'm still heavily into X14 while I get my assistant up to speed on X15.

[Chrisb222]

Also, you can have as many Material List Layer Sets as you want, to customize various views of the list. From your material list, click on the Edit Active View icon:

 

[LeeDrafter]

Hello,

I am trying to decide if I want to start using the materials lists in CA for takeoffs and estimating or if it would be more efficient to buy another software. I have been working for a home builder and drafting/designing in CA for a 10 years now, but I never took the time build the framing or other components exactly accurately. I just needed plans. I didn't need details stud layouts or anything like that which would be required to generate an accurate materials list.

 

Now my role has changed a bit, and I am now the estimator as I train a new drafter. I have been shopping for a takeoffs/estimating software. Although it seems logical to use CA since we already use it for design, it seems pretty complicated with a lot of steps required for accuracy. From reading this thread, it sounds like most people don't really rely on it for accurate takeoffs. Do I want to do the work to make all the floor plans super accurate, or is it better to use a different takeoff software that is a bit simpler even though I would have to input the plan data?

 

Does anybody out there work for a builder and need accurate takeoffs in order to buy materials? Do you use CA materials lists? Or, what other software do you like? I would appreciate any advice! Thank you!!

[GeneDavis]

I think of a framing list in three parts.  Walls and roof and floor structures.  And Chief gives those breakouts.

 

Since I work hard to make the floor structures and roofs framed as they should, those results are pretty good.  It's walls that are messy in the Chief reporting.

 

I have watched the framing and the delivered materials for walls have only two lengths.  Stud lengths and 16 footers.  Stud lengths like 92 5/8" or 104 5/8".  So run two material lists, one as the buy list to get your stud length counts (ignoring all that are not studs), and run a list that gives total length.  Subtract your studs from that total, divide the remainder by 16 feet, and now you have your 16s for walls.  Add 20 percent to the 16s and 15 for the studs.

 

Rake walls, gable walls, anything with a canted top, gets figured as 16s.  If you have some big tall ones you probably had to engineer in some LSL studs in 18 to 24 foot lengths, and those get tallied, with extras added.  Like 10 percent.

 

Analyze carefully what Chief counted for headers, and table out according, editing as needed, and adding a couple of 16s to each size lumber header.  Not the LVLs or PSLs.  Use what Chief reports for that, but you have examined it carefully and edited as required.

 

Floors report with accuracy because I have built them accurately.  Same for roofs.  I table everything out like blocking, subfascia, truss fills, at 16 foot lengths, and add 20 percent.

 

The reason your lists seem so wrong is that the guy at the yard is trying his best to figure, is likely ignoring every single opening, doors and windows, to get his stud and shoe and plate numbers, and then adding maybe even as much as 25 percent.

 

Whatever doesn't get used gets picked up and credited back.