Let's PBR

[TheKitchenAbode]

6 minutes ago, MPDesign said:

nope failed as soon as i tried to adjust the sun time to February 15th it was on june15th

 Try changing the intensity(Lux) of the sun, the default is very high.

[MPDesign]

ok, thought i had that set to 2000 lux, it was at the default of 100,000.

It made a difference for sure but still faintly there. This isn't a paying job so  

[TheKitchenAbode]

2 minutes ago, MPDesign said:

ok, thought i had that set to 2000 lux, it was at the default of 100,000.

It made a difference for sure but still faintly there. This isn't a paying job so  

 By any chance did you try the wall material region?

[MPDesign]

yes just tried it, that does fix it. 

[MPDesign]

close up view

[TheKitchenAbode]

1 minute ago, MPDesign said:

yes just tried it, that does fix it. 

 If that worked then the problem must relate to the way the two wall/material sections abut. For some reason CA must be calculating them just slightly different from each other. Maybe try opening up each walls DBX and making sure the location points and angles are exact, could also try re snapping them.

[Chrisb222]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:18 PM, TheKitchenAbode said:

I don't really want to drop $3,000 or more on a new rig, especially just for this one feature. 

 

I hear ya. I'm pretty disappointed with PBR and X10 rendering in general. I love the other new features but can't start using X10 until I sort out the rendering. 

 

My humble MacMini runs CA just fine, and I'm pretty good at getting nice Ray Traces in previous versions. And since RT seems to rely on the CPU my system did just fine.

 

However, it won't handle PBR at all, since my computer only has Iris graphics, no separate GPU. PBR is slow and the results are horrible. Can't even begin to use it although I have tried, using this thread as a guide for settings.

 

I don't really want to buy a new system anyway, since what I have runs CA just fine... but not PBR. And Apple has no good high-end system right now, and when they DO upgrade the MacPro, the price will be sky high.

 

I'm loathe to, but have been considering the move to PC and found what seems like an excellent system for the money:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B3ZSPKK/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

 

I'm a little sore that CA gave us a great new feature that only runs well on super high end systems. Oh well... for the time being I'm experimenting with adapting my RT routine to X10. It seems to be working...

 

Recent Ray Trace in X10 on my MacMini, 26 lights, 10 passes in about 5 minutes (plus I can work in Chief while it's running):

 

Same scene in PBR, best I could do, cannot use "Improve Lighting Quality" as everything goes black:

 

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Chrisb222 said:

Same scene in PBR, best I could do, cannot use "Improve Lighting Quality" as everything goes black:

 

So you tried the Settings in Post no#43 on page 2 ? and set it up in your defaults?  Setting PBR as the normal Full Camera View can help so you don't need to switch from STD to PBR.

 

M.

[Chrisb222]

10 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

So you tried the Settings in Post no#43 on page 2 ? and set it up in your defaults?  Setting PBR as the normal Full Camera View can help so you don't need to switch from STD to PBR.

 

M.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

I used all the suggested settings, but did not set up defaults and PBR as default camera. I will try that.

 

However, I'm certain my little Mini with CPU-based Iris graphics is not up to the task. It's just frustrating that X10 now requires a super system for this one feature, and now Ray Trace behaves differently...

[MarkMc]

1 minute ago, Chrisb222 said:

However, I'm certain my little Mini with CPU-based Iris graphics is not up to the task.

With what you show you can get it's likely that you can mess with the settings as described in this thread, all of them. and get better results. Takes some mucking about. Attached are a few shots from X9 files. Just a few tests done on the Spectre in my signature with just an Intel card. Not my best, have better on the other machine, but not bad just quick tests of the machine. It's running on a one year old driver since none of the actual drivers for it worked with PBR. I did not fuss with these much, very few added light sources, adjusted the sun down, they are using improved lighting. Very slow updating so if I added any lighting I did it in standard view then switched (yeah and no problem!!) Note that I worked on these with NO additional monitors connected-you might want to disconnect one to see?

[Chrisb222]

27 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

Note that I worked on these with NO additional monitors connected-you might want to disconnect one to see?

 

Hmm, great point, I'm sure that would boost my graphic engine's capabilities re: PBR.

 

Thanks!

 

(Nice pics, BTW  )

[TheKitchenAbode]

13 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

I hear ya. I'm pretty disappointed with PBR and X10 rendering in general. I love the other new features but can't start using X10 until I sort out the rendering. 

 

Recent Ray Trace in X10 on my MacMini, 26 lights, 10 passes in about 5 minutes (plus I can work in Chief while it's running):

 

Same scene in PBR, best I could do, cannot use "Improve Lighting Quality" as everything goes black:

 

 

PBR'ing, like Ray Tracing takes some time and experimentation to develop an understanding as to the relationships between lighting and material properties. As with Ray Tracing, it seems that the default settings are not always conducive to the best result. The other aspect, as you are experiencing, is that PBR'ing is quite demanding on the GPU. As such, the live PBR environment can be frustrating to work in when it starts taking 15 seconds or more to update.

 

If I examine your PBR scene I would say the most obvious issue is that the sun's intensity is most likely too high. Those ceiling pots need their drop rate increased to avoid the highly defined bright circle being cast onto the floor and other objects. As you do these things your scene will most likely darken, just use the PBR DBX and adjust the camera exposure and brightness to correct for this. It seems with PBR'ing that balancing the contribution of sun related light to interior lighting is extremely important, this is of coarse how it is in the real world, the perceived degree of brightness of say a 550 lumen pot light is directly related to the amount of light entering the room from the exterior, at night the pot looks bright but at mid day it may not even show. PBR deals with light in the same manner, try to think in real world terms. For example, if you look out of your windows the exterior background is way too bright, would this type of situation really occur in the real world, I doubt it. These over exposed exteriors/windows are a special photographic effect, best to leave this effect alone until one learns the basics.

 

 

[jonboy]

I can understand the time learning PBR, but it seems that it should not be so complex as it is. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Just now, jonboy112352 said:

I can understand the time learning PBR, but it seems that it should not be so complex as it is. 

Yes, it would be great if it was just as simple as throwing in some lights and turn on the sun. I agree that the defaults do not seem to be highly conducive to this. However, as in real life, a room with only one or two lights will never photograph well. CA can't control how many lights you use or their type, they also can't control your sun placement(angle/date) or the number of windows you have that will allow the sun light to enter the room. The quality of scene you achieve is determined by computations based upon how the available light, from a given light source, would interact with materials in accordance to their property settings.

 

As this PBR thing is brand new and somewhat rushed it's likely going to take a bit of time for CA to fine tune things to at least deliver an improved starting point.

[MarkMc]

2 hours ago, jonboy112352 said:

I can understand the time learning PBR, but it seems that it should not be so complex as it is. 

I always struggled with Ray Trace. Maybe did not invest enough time, partly not that important or worth the effort for me. In any case I had a need for better/faster renderings for a particular client so I dusted off an old copy of Thea and Rene was kind enough to give me a few pointers. Shortly after the first Beta came along with PBR. It was a lot rougher then, Even still I took to it pretty quickly and got better results with it than almost any RT I'd ever done. Not as good as what Thea can do in someone elses hands but for me more than adequate. Chief has made great strides with each iteration.. Have not had time to fully integrate the info Graham and Mick and others have posted here but I'm happy enough to use it far more than I ever bothered with RT.

I'd like the settings to somehow be condensed but that is what it is.

[cv2702]

I find that several camera view related adjustments won't immediately show in the current PBR; for example, changing the hue to attenuate the greenish teint.   Very annoying to flip back and forth between DBX and view.  It seems that sometimes just flipping from PBR to Standard back to PBR works, but other times I had to delete and recreate the camera.

 

Have I missed something?

[Kbird1]

7 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

I used all the suggested settings, but did not set up defaults and PBR as default camera. I will try that.

 

However, I'm certain my little Mini with CPU-based Iris graphics is not up to the task. It's just frustrating that X10 now requires a super system for this one feature, and now Ray Trace behaves differently...

 

As the others have pointed out you may just need to invest more time and getting to know the limits of your MiniMac etc ....

 

Or invest some Cash looks like a good Choice on computer to me you linked above ( don't know the company) , I might go 32GB on the RAM but good CPU and Good Graphics, I just received a 1070ti as an RMA, same as the Computer linked above and it is handling PBR nicely ........comeback from the Dark Side  you'll love your new PC.

 

M.

[TheKitchenAbode]

19 hours ago, cv2702 said:

I find that several camera view related adjustments won't immediately show in the current PBR; for example, changing the hue to attenuate the greenish teint.   Very annoying to flip back and forth between DBX and view.  It seems that sometimes just flipping from PBR to Standard back to PBR works, but other times I had to delete and recreate the camera.

 

Have I missed something?

 

The greenish tint/color cast is usually related to the exterior terrain(grass) or a backdrop with a lot of green color in it in combination with very high sun lux settings. With PBR'ing exterior colors will influence the interior. If the exterior must stay as is then just reduce the sun's intensity. The other approach is to change the backdrop or terrain, just keep in mind that in this case the PBR will forecast those colors into the interior. I would not really recommend using the Hue slider as this is global and will change everything else in the scene, it also seems to be way to sensitive and impossible to make very fine adjustments.

 

 

[MarkMc]

19 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

The greenish tint/color cast is usually related to the exterior terrain(grass) or a backdrop with a lot of green color in it in combination with very high sun lux settings. With PBR'ing exterior colors will influence the interior. If the exterior must stay as is then just reduce the sun's intensity. The other approach is to change the backdrop or terrain, just keep in mind that in this case the PBR will forecast those colors into the interior. I would not really recommend using the Hue slider as this is global and will change everything else in the scene, it also seems to be way to sensitive and impossible to make very fine adjustments.

 

 

Some backdrops are worse than others. Spherical from bonus library in particular cast more color.

Moving the sun locations around often solves it as does adding a light source  to wash out the color.

Best solution I've found though-if I need/want image in the windows, don't want to move the sun, or mess with adding extra lights. Use no backdrop, add a billboard image in back of the window and adjust the transparency. (I've only tried JPEG but have a hunch PNG may have more issues?) In any case here's a quick example.

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

2 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

Some backdrops are worse than others. Spherical from bonus library in particular cast more color.

Moving the sun locations around often solves it as does adding a light source  to wash out the color.

Best solution I've found though-if I need/want image in the windows, don't want to move the sun, or mess with adding extra lights. Use no backdrop, add a billboard image in back of the window and adjust the transparency. (I've only tried JPEG but have a hunch PNG may have more issues?) In any case here's a quick example.

 

 

Great suggestions Mark. Adding to this technique is to take an existing backdrop into a photo editor and adjust it's colour saturation and brightness/darkness and import it back into CA. In this scene the CA Forested Road backdrop was altered in Photoshop. I have predominantly overexposed windows with just a hint of the backdrop as seen in the bay window. Doing this eliminates the need to overly crank up the sun's intensity which can cause other undesirable effects.

 

[Chrisb222]

On 3/9/2018 at 8:43 AM, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

PBR'ing, like Ray Tracing takes some time and experimentation to develop an understanding as to the relationships between lighting and material properties. As with Ray Tracing, it seems that the default settings are not always conducive to the best result. The other aspect, as you are experiencing, is that PBR'ing is quite demanding on the GPU. As such, the live PBR environment can be frustrating to work in when it starts taking 15 seconds or more to update.

 

If I examine your PBR scene I would say the most obvious issue is that the sun's intensity is most likely too high. Those ceiling pots need their drop rate increased to avoid the highly defined bright circle being cast onto the floor and other objects. As you do these things your scene will most likely darken, just use the PBR DBX and adjust the camera exposure and brightness to correct for this. It seems with PBR'ing that balancing the contribution of sun related light to interior lighting is extremely important, this is of coarse how it is in the real world, the perceived degree of brightness of say a 550 lumen pot light is directly related to the amount of light entering the room from the exterior, at night the pot looks bright but at mid day it may not even show. PBR deals with light in the same manner, try to think in real world terms. For example, if you look out of your windows the exterior background is way too bright, would this type of situation really occur in the real world, I doubt it. These over exposed exteriors/windows are a special photographic effect, best to leave this effect alone until one learns the basics.

 

 

 

Thanks, I know I need to invest the time to learn the ins and outs, just not sure that's practical with my current system. I'll try though, and thank you for the tips!

[Chrisb222]

20 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

As the others have pointed out you may just need to invest more time and getting to know the limits of your MiniMac etc ....

 

Yes, and I expected that, but my current system is GPU handicapped. I haven't given up but RT still works, just differently. So learning is required either way...

 

20 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

Or invest some Cash looks like a good Choice on computer to me you linked above ( don't know the company) , I might go 32GB on the RAM but good CPU and Good Graphics, I just received a 1070ti as an RMA, same as the Computer linked above and it is handling PBR nicely ........comeback from the Dark Side  you'll love your new PC.

 

Come "back" to a PC? Haha, I began computer-graphicing with a Macintosh SE in 1988.

 

 

Can you say 9" Monochrome Screen? LOL

 

Of all the many Macs I've owned, I only ever bought one PC for myself (although many for the kids)-- an HP laptop for remote Chief presentations. I hate it. 

 

However, I may be forced to go that route just to run Chief. The bad thing is while I'm fairly nimble running a Mac, I know next to nothing about operating a PC...

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, MarkMc said:

Use no backdrop, add a billboard image in back of the window and adjust the transparency.

 

Nice Idea !  it always seems the the Backdrop doesn't align well with the house or looks totally Fake I will need to remember to take photos out the Clients windows...

 

M.

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Yes, and I expected that, but my current system is GPU handicapped. I haven't given up but RT still works, just differently. So learning is required either way...

 

 

Come "back" to a PC? Haha, I began computer-graphicing with a Macintosh SE in 1988.

 

 

Can you say 9" Monochrome Screen? LOL

 

Of all the many Macs I've owned, I only ever bought one PC for myself (although many for the kids)-- an HP laptop for remote Chief presentations. I hate it. 

 

However, I may be forced to go that route just to run Chief. The bad thing is while I'm fairly nimble running a Mac, I know next to nothing about operating a PC...

 

Some PC's are capable of Running Hackintosh (Mac OS on PC hardware) but support varies on the Hardware , you'd need to do some research 1st as it may not work with just any PC, some PC Motherboards handle it well , not sure about Nvidia Graphics and the MAC OS support though as I am the complete opposite of you ...I have never used a MAC ( except fixing several ) or any Apple Product for that matter , I started with a Commodore 64 , Tape Drive and an old TV . 

 

https://www.macworld.com/article/3196994/macs/how-to-build-a-hackintosh.html

https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/26/hackintosh-macos-gtx-1080-ti-build-performance-video-part-1/

https://9to5mac.com/guides/hackintosh/

 

M

[cv2702]

4 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

The greenish tint/color cast is usually related to the exterior terrain(grass) or a backdrop with a lot of green color in it in combination with very high sun lux settings. With PBR'ing exterior colors will influence the interior. If the exterior must stay as is then just reduce the sun's intensity. The other approach is to change the backdrop or terrain, just keep in mind that in this case the PBR will forecast those colors into the interior. I would not really recommend using the Hue slider as this is global and will change everything else in the scene, it also seems to be way to sensitive and impossible to make very fine adjustments.

 

 

The backdrop in this project is effectively heavily forested.  I tried deleting the backdrop (Full camera view & 3D defaults) and it keeps coming back.  I'm obviously missing something, again!