Porch Beam Misalignment

[Chrisb222]

I've been battling this issue for years. I have my roof defaults set how I want, with the structure settings to match how we build and to look correct in 3D views and cross sections. With these settings, a covered porch with a low pitch gable roof will always have the eave beam and the gable beam misaligned, on different levels (see pics). I finally tracked this down to the Gable Sub-Fascia setting being too thick which is pushing the eave beam down. If I make that setting thinner, the beams align, but the overhang doesn't look right in 3D because the soffit should be slightly tucked in the gable fascia, not 2" up inside it. 

 

Funny thing is, it only happens when I specify the room as a "Porch." If the room is changed to anything else, Unspecified, Living Room, or even Patio, the beams align. So there must be something inherent in the Porch definition that makes it behave differently.

 

I was able to reproduce the issue in a native OOB X12 Residential Template plan (attached). See Structure settings in the Roof DBX.

 

Anyway, just wondering if anyone has any insight into what's going on here, and how I can use the settings I need without the beams going wonky. Thanks.

 

"Porch" room type, beams not aligned:

 

 

"Patio" room type, beams aligned:

 

Beam Misalignment.plan

[rgardner]

Yes, you will need to use manual beams if you want it to notch.  The railing tools with beams you cannot fully customize beam placement.  

[robdyck]

@Chrisb222See what happens if you change the subfascia height to 5.5".

[Chrisb222]

36 minutes ago, rgardner said:

Yes, you will need to use manual beams if you want it to notch.  The railing tools with beams you cannot fully customize beam placement.  

 

Yeah I do that when I can't get anything else to work. Like I said, if I change the ROOM type it aligns correctly. That's what has me puzzled....

 

 

17 minutes ago, robdyck said:

@Chrisb222See what happens if you change the subfascia height to 5.5".

 

Right, that works, but then my soffit is 2" up in the fascia, which doesn't look right.

 

It's weird how changing the room to "Patio" makes the beam sit correctly.

[Kbird1]

Not sure if it is the cause but a Porch comes auto with a Roof and Flat Ceiling

5 hours ago, robdyck said:

@Chrisb222See what happens if you change the subfascia height to 5.5".

 

Certainly seems like the Fix in this Plan, though I can't explain why your custom subfascia sizes ( 6 1/8?) or 7" eave fascia don't work normally,

or why switching to unspecified fixes it ......one for T.S. to explain methinks......or  @Dermot 

 

[CharlesVolz]

Howdy Chris,

 

It just seem like a roof problem. Just align the roof baseline with the outside main layer of that porch eaves wall and see if that works for you.

 

Proper baseline location from my change:

 

 

Before baseline was moved:

 

 

 

After baseline was moved:

 

 

For others: The baselines need to be at the correct elevation also, which they were.

 

I did not change any roof defaults, like sub-fascia size.

85332670_BeamMisalignment CV1.zip

[Kbird1]

28 minutes ago, CharlesVolz said:

The baselines need to be at the correct elevation

 

I missed that on the 1st go around and after a bit more of a play it seems when you switch the Room to a Porch Chief is automatically

moving the Baseline to the center of the Wall instead of leaving it on the outside edge which is strange......

 

I am not sure if it is related to the fact that the Walltype used in the plan is the Interior Railing instead of the Railing/Fence Walltype used in the Deck Railing Tools or not? 

 

 

[rgardner]

6 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

I am not sure if it is related to the fact that the Walltype used in the plan is the Interior Railing instead of the Railing/Fence Walltype used in the Deck Railing Tools or not?

I would think that interior railing would like all interior railings build EVERYTHING to the middle of the wall where as if your exterior railing and exterior walls are setup to use build to outer layer it wold know the baseline goes on the outside of that railing.

[Chrisb222]

7 hours ago, CharlesVolz said:

Howdy Chris,

 

It just seem like a roof problem. Just align the roof baseline with the outside main layer of that porch eaves wall and see if that works for you.

 

Hi Charles, thanks, yes I see now the roof baseline is shifting to the center of the wall for some reason, and moving it out fixed the misalignment. However it required canceling auto rebuild roofs.

[Chrisb222]

6 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

I am not sure if it is related to the fact that the Walltype used in the plan is the Interior Railing instead of the Railing/Fence Walltype used in the Deck Railing Tools or not? 

 

In your screenshot, your porch beams are also misaligned.

 

11 minutes ago, rgardner said:

I would think that interior railing would like all interior railings build EVERYTHING to the middle of the wall where as if your exterior railing and exterior walls are setup to use build to outer layer it wold know the baseline goes on the outside of that railing.

 

Nope I rebuilt the porch using OOB Deck Railing/Fence wall type and the program shifted the baseline to the center as soon as I changed it to a low pitch, and broke the beam.

 

I think the program is shifting the baseline because of the low pitch, but I'm still puzzled why on the original test plan changing the room type to Unspecified fixed the beam, WITHOUT moving the baseline back to the exterior layer, changing the pitch, or turning off Auto Roofs....

[SNestor]

@Chrisb222 - definitely weird. I think the gable end sub-fascia is the issue but this could be a tech support issue. 

 

Chrisb222 - Porch Roof and Beam Alignment Issue - Watch Video

[Kbird1]

3 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

In your screenshot, your porch beams are also misaligned.

 

this is true , but never claimed I fixed the Issue , in fact it seems worse, but I think that is maybe because you are using 2x2 posts (newels)

and the Deck Railing is using a 4x4 post and a 4x beam.

 

M

[Chrisb222]

2 hours ago, SNestor said:

@Chrisb222 - definitely weird. I think the gable end sub-fascia is the issue but this could be a tech support issue. 

 

Chrisb222 - Porch Roof and Beam Alignment Issue - Watch Video

 

Thanks Steve, I appreciate you going to the trouble to make a video.

 

Yeah I had it narrowed down to the gable sub fascia like I said in the OP but @CharlesVolz was also right that the roof baseline somehow shifted to the center of the wall....?? And moving it to exterior fixes the beam....???

 

 

[Chrisb222]

4 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

this is true , but never claimed I fixed the Issue , in fact it seems worse, but I think that is maybe because you are using 2x2 posts (newels)

and the Deck Railing is using a 4x4 post and a 4x beam.

 

I know you didn't say it was fixed, just pointing it out.

 

I've tried different post and beam sizes over the years, never made a difference.

 

I think Charles figured it out, because Chief definitely moves the roof baseline at some point to the center of the wall, just not sure why.

 

 

 

Anyone: The biggest puzzle to me is how the original test file in the OP will show the beam correctly when the room type is changed. Try it. Change the room to Patio. The roof baseline doesn't move, but the beam aligns. Totally weird.

 

 

 

[Kbird1]

10 minutes ago, Chrisb222 said:

The biggest puzzle to me is how the original test file in the OP will show the beam correctly when the room type is changed. Try it. Change the room to Patio. The roof baseline doesn't move, but the beam aligns. Totally weird.

 

Yep totally weird , and should go to Tech. Support for sure.

 

M.

[CharlesVolz]

28 minutes ago, Chrisb222 said:

And moving it to exterior fixes the beam....???

 

Remember that:

1. The location of of the baseline (in 3D: X, Y, Z) and the roof pitch determine the location (and height) of the roof plane.
2. The wall extends upward until it reaches the ceiling height or a lower roof plane, depending on your settings (like a balloon wall).
3. The "beam" in this case is part of the railing wall.

 

So when you move the baseline inward toward the porch center, you lower the roof plane and shorten that wall's height (and lower the top of that wall) which lowers the "beam" that is part of that wall.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Best,

Charles

[SNestor]

Yes - but in my video I used auto build roofs and the baseline was never placed in the wall center.  

The baseline is a line that extends from the exterior surface of the main layer to the top surface of the rafter…so why would Chief move the baseline inward towards the wall center? Weird behavior for sure.  And - changing the room type would correct the beam elevation.  Weird

[Chrisb222]

19 minutes ago, CharlesVolz said:

So when you move the baseline inward toward the porch center, you lower the roof plane and shorten that wall's height (and lower the top of that wall) which lowers the "beam" that is part of that wall.

 

1. Yes I get that but I didn't move the baseline to the center of the wall, chief did that. 

 

2. The beam builds correctly when the porch is changed to any other room type, while the baseline remains in the center of the wall.

 

So....

 

Thank you again for your thoughts.

[Chrisb222]

Does anyone know of any differences in the OOB room defaults that would cause a porch to behave differently than other rooms?? I've searched the default settings but couldn't see any difference.

 

Maybe there are aspects of a 'porch' that are different in the hardcode??

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

1. Yes I get that but I didn't move the baseline to the center of the wall, chief did that. 

 

2. The beam builds correctly when the porch is changed to any other room type, while the baseline remains in the center of the wall.

 

So....

 

Thank you again for your thoughts.

 

 

Same results for me..... in your plan ...not sure if it was an OOB Template?

 

M.

[Chrisb222]

8 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

not sure if it was an OOB Template?

 

Yes, as mentioned in the OP X12 Residential Template, nothing changed except Roof Structure to match my template.

 

Like Steve said, the gable sub fascia is part of the problem, but I need it to be the same as it will be built

[SNestor]

1 hour ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Like Steve said, the gable sub fascia is part of the problem, but I need it to be the same as it will be built

 

Chris - where do you get a 6 3/8" Sub Fascia?

 

Why can't you just construct the roof with a 5.5" Sub Fascia...and adjust the size of the fascia board to limit the offset between the soffit and the bottom of the fasica? Seems to me this provides a similar result...and it eliminates the issue with the porch beam. 

 

Just FYI. I just opened the X13 Residential Template. And constructed your plan with auto rebuild roofs turned on. The software placed the baseline directly over the main layer of the porch wall (Interior-4) as it was supposed to with "automatic birdsmouth" checked.  When I unchecked this box...the baseline moved inward...but it didn't seem to move the roof plane. 

 

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Yes, as mentioned in the OP X12 Residential Template, nothing changed except Roof Structure to match my template.

 

Like Steve said, the gable sub fascia is part of the problem, but I need it to be the same as it will be built

 

Ok I forgot you had gone back to X12 on your Mac , I have not tried this in an X13 OOB Template to see if the Issue persists.

 

Like others I am surprised your SubFascia are actually that size since it's  "not off the shelf" , but it makes me wonder if something is hardcoded

for standard size subfascias behind the scene.

 

M.

[Chrisb222]

Appreciate all the insight, thanks to you all for contributing. I think I finally have the solution to the problem.

 

21 hours ago, SNestor said:

Chris - where do you get a 6 3/8" Sub Fascia?

 

Why can't you just construct the roof with a 5.5" Sub Fascia

 

A long time ago I calculated the sizes of the items in the roof structure tab to replicate the end result I want. However, as a result of working through the ideas presented here, I found that changing the sizes of those items around a little, and using 5.5" for the sub fascia (which is what is actually used), combined with checking "Same Height Eaves" and NOT "Same Roof Height at Exterior Walls", I can still get the end result and it seems the porch beam now builds correctly every time.

 

Thanks again for all your help.