Dimensioning issues with X13

[rlackore]

1 hour ago, Dermot said:

Robert,

 

I don't think you actually drew a manual dimension.  I think you drew an end-to-end dimension instead and then added new marks manually,

 

If you open the dimension specification dialog, it shows that your dimension line is using the end-to-end dimension locate settings.  This means that you drew an end-to-end dimension.  End-to-end dimensions do not pick up extra marks so you must of have manually added these marks later.

 

When you manually add dimension marks the program will automatically pick up anything you can dimension to.  As far as I know, the program has always worked this way. 

 

The only thing that is different in X13 is that now you can dimension to cabinet openings and door/drawer panels.  This means that it is much easier to pick up things that you might not want.  We are looking into this problem to see if there are any changes we can make to make this less confusing/frustrating.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. You're correct - I used an End-to-End dimension, then manually located the cabinet parts. A big chunk of my confusion is in not understanding/learning the proper Dimension tool names - I wrongly conflated End-to-End with Manual. That said, I would argue that if both my End-to-End and Manual defaults are set to cabinet Sides and Corners, then they shouldn't pick up the other cabinet parts, even if I "manually" locate things afterward. Does that make sense?

[PMMully]

Great commitment to resolution. Nice job everyone!

[Whitehorse]

1 hour ago, rgardner said:

My suspicion of what is happening as well.

 

I think many users have the misconception that when you manually adjust your dimensions you lose the automatic behavior because Chief thinks you want to over-ride it otherwise you would have told it to automatically do it to begin with.  It's basically the program telling itself, okay this is a special use case so the user wants to override the defaults, give the user total control...

Thank you,

 

Yes, I always use the end to end tool, I spend too much time fixing the manual dimension.  Yes in this case I "built" the upper section per what my customer wanted.

Where I am having the problem on this plan is on the actual cabinets.  It was again grabbing the 1/16" and I spend a lot of time trying to get my point on the correct spot.

I looked at my defaults and I have everything checked except the doors and openings.  Are you saying that I should uncheck "corners"?  I will also look at the reach.  

[Alaskan_Son]

10 hours ago, Whitehorse said:

Hi Michael,

 

Here is a tiny plan, I did draw lines to dimension to.  I hope you find that it is user error.  

 

Sorry, just getting back to the office so I'm a little late to the party this morning, but I think Dermot just about covered it and this example highlights exactly why its so important that we have a plan file to look at.  Your Locate settings all seem decent enough (although I would personally uncheck a couple more things) but your model itself is a problem.  Because you built that unit out of so many other individual cabinetry components, its difficult to know which ones your dimensions are grabbing onto.  Not only that, but your items aren't even aligned correctly.  Your soffit for example is offset from the items below by a fraction of an inch. 

 

Anyway, its not that what you're doing is wrong per se (aside from the misalignment), but you are indeed causing yourself dimension problems if you're going to be modeling that way with all the parts and pieces.

 

I would also suggest you take to heart what Mick said about changing your Reach settings--particularly if you're going to be modeling out of parts and pieces like that a lot.  It will make it a lot easier top avoid picking up on unwanted items.

 

Now more specifically in regard to your modeling habits...I would suggest you consider trying to work with fewer cabinet components unless you need to use multiple pieces for some reason.  That upper unit for example could pretty easily be built out of a single cabinet.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

Yes, I always use the end to end tool

 

This is another problem.  I suggest you read up on the various dimension tools or get a little training in this regard.  The various locate settings are essentially useless after the initial pull.

[Alaskan_Son]

3 hours ago, Whitehorse said:

Here is the response from support for the plan that I sent in to them.  Why would I waste anyone's time if I did not?

 

Sorry, but in a way you were wasting everyone's time by not providing us with the same courtesy and my statement was just based on some of your wording.  It didn't seem clear that you had provided them with a plan is all.

[Alaskan_Son]

By the way, just a quick tip, but if you absolutely need to be building your units out of so many parts and pieces and if you can't manage to get the automated dimensions strings to work more effectively for you on the initial pull, you can always place object onto specific layers and turn layers off temporarily in order to filter out what you're dimensioning. 

[Kbird1]

26 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

Are you saying that I should uncheck "corners"?  I will also look at the reach.  

 

I would say yes and it is the Reach (default 24") that makes a Manual Dimension so "messy" as shown in my earlier pic - even though pulled on the base cabinets it is still picking up the Uppers as well , try 4" and see the difference.....

 

some more tips here...... Specific to X13

https://www.chiefarchitect.com/videos/watch/1595/dimensioning-cabinet-face-items-and-openings.html?playlist=92

 

[Kbird1]

17 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

you can always place object onto specific layers and turn layers off temporarily in order to filter out what you're dimensioning. 

 

I need to play more , but I am not sure this is working as expected currently as shown yest. the 2'9" dim. still snapped to the opening even though it is not visible, or one of the default dimension "points to find".

 

* Not sure if this could be related to a brought Forward Plan (X12)

 

M.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I need to play more , but I am not sure this is working as expected currently as shown yest. the 2'9" dim. still snapped to the opening even though it is not visible, or one of the default dimension "points to find".

 

* Not sure if this could be related to a brought Forward Plan (X12)

 

It seems like you should be able to post a stripped down plan.

[MarkMc]

30 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

I always use the end to end tool,

I setup default sets, AKA annotation sets, for dimensioning kitchens. There is Cab All, Cab Base, Cab Wall, Cab Counters and Cab Centers, then for elevations the same group minus counters. NOTE that Cab Centers actually only measure fixture centers but I call it that to keep them in a group. Plan sets are prefixed with "1-", elevation sets with "2-"

All the dimensions go to the same layer -cab dimensions.

Each set changes a layout set and a dimension default.

Cab Base annoset- the layerset only shows base cabinets, floors and walls. Dimension default is set to snap to cabinet sides.

Cab Walls  - layerset only shows wall cabinets floors and walls, same snaps.

Elevation sets are similar just depends if you also want toe kick, counter and molding. For the elevations sets cross section lines is turned off in the layerset.

Each dimension default has a different proximity fixed distance, I don't change the reach. That way the base cabinets are set X" outside the wall, Wall cabinets are set X+6" outside the wall and so on. I most often use end to end for the overall dimension.

 

To use this select an annoset (default set), drag using manual dimension tool, switch set and repeat. When done revert to the cabinet all annoset.

 

NOTE if you are dimensioning a wall elevation instead of a back clipped section you have to drag inside the elevation. Once you have a dimension string pull it to the outside of the elevation. It will snap based on the proximity fixed setting so there will be no overlap of dimension strings. Should you need to alter the proximity fixed setting for a string for some reason you need to select Extension/Markers- select Extension 1

 

You can dimensions a kitchen in minutes with this once you have it set up. NO dragging dimension lines and the only time you need to grab little triangles to change things is when there is a perpendicular wall on the other side that is within the reach setting (easy to avoid). Then you just throw the diamond away. Have been using this since they first gave us annosets.

 X13 has some great things that can be added to the system for openings and such but the basics remain.

 

FWIW- I never ever use auto fillers, auto blind corners OR partitions (make those from cabinets and store in library or as a style palette)

 

[Whitehorse]

45 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

I setup default sets, AKA annotation sets, for dimensioning kitchens. There is Cab All, Cab Base, Cab Wall, Cab Counters and Cab Centers, then for elevations the same group minus counters. NOTE that Cab Centers actually only measure fixture centers but I call it that to keep them in a group. Plan sets are prefixed with "1-", elevation sets with "2-"

All the dimensions go to the same layer -cab dimensions.

Each set changes a layout set and a dimension default.

Cab Base annoset- the layerset only shows base cabinets, floors and walls. Dimension default is set to snap to cabinet sides.

Cab Walls  - layerset only shows wall cabinets floors and walls, same snaps.

Elevation sets are similar just depends if you also want toe kick, counter and molding. For the elevations sets cross section lines is turned off in the layerset.

Each dimension default has a different proximity fixed distance, I don't change the reach. That way the base cabinets are set X" outside the wall, Wall cabinets are set X+6" outside the wall and so on. I most often use end to end for the overall dimension.

 

To use this select an annoset (default set), drag using manual dimension tool, switch set and repeat. When done revert to the cabinet all annoset.

 

NOTE if you are dimensioning a wall elevation instead of a back clipped section you have to drag inside the elevation. Once you have a dimension string pull it to the outside of the elevation. It will snap based on the proximity fixed setting so there will be no overlap of dimension strings. Should you need to alter the proximity fixed setting for a string for some reason you need to select Extension/Markers- select Extension 1

 

You can dimensions a kitchen in minutes with this once you have it set up. NO dragging dimension lines and the only time you need to grab little triangles to change things is when there is a perpendicular wall on the other side that is within the reach setting (easy to avoid). Then you just throw the diamond away. Have been using this since they first gave us annosets.

 X13 has some great things that can be added to the system for openings and such but the basics remain.

 

FWIW- I never ever use auto fillers, auto blind corners OR partitions (make those from cabinets and store in library or as a style palette)

 

Hi Mark,

 

Looks like I need to spend some time going through all of this.  Thank You to everyone who has taken a look.  I have been using partitions but great suggestion to use cabinets with just a blank face.  I have done that but have been in the habit of using partitions.  Dimensions always seem to snap in the center even though I leave the locate to center off in most cases.

I learned early on that the auto fillers and blind corner are just a hassle I don't ever use those.  I also create either shelves, soffits or partitions for moldings so that I can dimension them easily and avoid unwanted lines in the renderings.  This little plan was started off of an X12 file, I have not done one from scratch yet and am hoping that this will get better as I go along.

Still tempted to go back to X12 will try all of the suggestions before I do.

 

Best,

Debbie

[rgardner]

2 hours ago, rlackore said:

That said, I would argue that if both my End-to-End and Manual defaults are set to cabinet Sides and Corners, then they shouldn't pick up the other cabinet parts, even if I "manually" locate things afterward. Does that make sense?

 

1 hour ago, Whitehorse said:

I think many users have the misconception that when you manually adjust your dimensions you lose the automatic behavior because Chief thinks you want to over-ride it otherwise you would have told it to automatically do it to begin with.  It's basically the program telling itself, okay this is a special use case so the user wants to override the defaults, give the user total control...

 

[Whitehorse]

3 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

Hi Mark,

 

Looks like I need to spend some time going through all of this.  Thank You to everyone who has taken a look.  I have been using partitions but great suggestion to use cabinets with just a blank face.  I have done that but have been in the habit of using partitions.  Dimensions always seem to snap in the center even though I leave the locate to center off in most cases.

I learned early on that the auto fillers and blind corner are just a hassle I don't ever use those.  I also create either shelves, soffits or partitions for moldings so that I can dimension them easily and avoid unwanted lines in the renderings.  This little plan was started off of an X12 file, I have not done one from scratch yet and am hoping that this will get better as I go along.

Still tempted to go back to X12 will try all of the suggestions before I do.

 

Best,

Debbie

In X12 and before I could get through the dimensioning with the end - end tool very quickly, just dimensions that I wanted so there is a big difference to what the program is picking up on and I think it is because of all of the additional points that it is capable of locating.  My cursor is definitely picking up on is the cabinet reveals and the interior of the box and I don't have those set, so I feel there is still an issue but again it could be the X12 factor. The Auto tool picks up everything but you made a good point that I could turn off layers.  I do create layers for the soffit, light rail, toeboard molding etc so it would be easy enough to do.

[Whitehorse]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Sorry, just getting back to the office so I'm a little late to the party this morning, but I think Dermot just about covered it and this example highlights exactly why its so important that we have a plan file to look at.  You Locate settings all seem decent enough (although I would personally uncheck a couple more things) but your model itself is a problem.  Because you built that unit out of so many other individual cabinetry components, its difficult to know which ones your dimensions are grabbing onto.  Not only that, but your items aren't even aligned correctly.  Your soffit for example is offset from the items below by a fraction of an inch. 

 

Anyway, its not that what you're doing is wrong per se (aside from the misalignment), but you are indeed causing yourself dimension problems if you're going to be modeling that way with all the parts and pieces.

 

I would also suggest you take to heart what Mick said about changing your Reach settings--particularly if you're going to be modeling out of parts and pieces like that a lot.  It will make it a lot easier top avoid picking up on unwanted items.

 

Now more specifically in regard to your modeling habits...I would suggest you consider trying to work with fewer cabinet components unless you need to use multiple pieces for some reason.  That upper unit for example could pretty easily be built out of a single cabinet.

Thank You,

As I explained the customer wanted it built that way and I have trouble with the cabinet bottom outline showing up when I have open bottoms on wall cabinets.  This goes way back and this is how I can quickly get this done and have points to dimension to.  The dimensions should not be picking up the soffit if I am on the cabinet faces, I just eyeball the overhangs on my soffit where I only care about the height dimension.  I create a separate detail for moldings. I use cabinets for all of my other plans unless I have a floating shelf, this plan was small enough to send to you. Appreciate all of the comments and time everyone has given to my case.  Will watch whatever training videos there are for X13 and have done training in the past.  I have learned a lot from the Webinars that Chief has run especially during the past year.

[Alaskan_Son]

43 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

I think it is because of all of the additional points that it is capable of locating

 

Ding ding ding!!!

 

43 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

My cursor is definitely picking up on is the cabinet reveals and the interior of the box and I don't have those set, so I feel there is still an issue

Its been stated and alluded to a few times in this thread, but your locate settings aren't controlling or filtering anything when you edit your dimensions after the fact (which is what you have to be doing if you're always using End to End Dimensions).  The only exception is when you use the circular Add Segments edit handle.  From the Help file....

 

"The Add Segments handles are located just past the ends of the dimension line and are used to increase the length of the dimension line and locate additional objects with it. The types of objects and their mark points that can be located with this method are dependent on the Dimension Defaults that the selected dimension line inherits its settings from, as well as the tool used to draw it. The Status Bar reports a selected dimension line's type, as does its specification dialog. See Dimension Panel."

 

You can toggle which locate settings are used in the individual Dimension Line Specification dialogs.

[Alaskan_Son]

19 minutes ago, Whitehorse said:

As I explained the customer wanted it built that way and I have trouble with the cabinet bottom outline showing up when I have open bottoms on wall cabinets.

 

That stopped being a problem quite some time back and Chief even added controls for this in X13 so that we can specifically remove the top or bottom of the cabinet. 

[Alaskan_Son]

12 hours ago, PMMully said:

I am just now getting ready to migrate to x13. Given I was new on X12, and now really moving along pretty well, this sorta spooks me.

Don't be spooked by this thread.  There has be no evidence presented thus far that proves any problem with the software.  Its all been user error, user workflow issues, or a general lack of understanding as to how the tools are intended to work.

[PMMully]

2 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Don't be spooked by this thread.  There has be no evidence presented thus far that proves any problem with the software.  Its all been user error, user workflow issues, or a general lack of understanding as to how the tools are intended to work.

Check. I installed X13 this AM. I already posted my first X13 question in different thread.

[Chrisb222]

4 hours ago, rlackore said:

That said, I would argue that if both my End-to-End and Manual defaults are set to cabinet Sides and Corners, then they shouldn't pick up the other cabinet parts, even if I "manually" locate things afterward. Does that make sense?

 

I would actually like MORE snaps for manually-placed extensions. I find myself wanting a snap I don't have ten times for every time I get frustrated over a snap I don't want.

 

I could see a toggle for switching between "Only Snap To Default Snap Settings" or "Snap To All Snaps," because there are times when I don't want those extra snaps. (Which might make a nice Suggestion BTW.)

 

But no I would not want to always have only the default snaps on manually-added extensions.

 

 

[rlackore]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

The only exception is when you use the circular Add Segments edit handle.  From the Help file....

 

"The Add Segments handles are located just past the ends of the dimension line and are used to increase the length of the dimension line and locate additional objects with it. The types of objects and their mark points that can be located with this method are dependent on the Dimension Defaults that the selected dimension line inherits its settings from, as well as the tool used to draw it.

 

There's the key! Thanks Michael - I've never clicked on that little circle before, I've always grabbed the diamond.

[Renerabbitt]

Easy Peasy

 

[Whitehorse]

5 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Sorry, just getting back to the office so I'm a little late to the party this morning, but I think Dermot just about covered it and this example highlights exactly why its so important that we have a plan file to look at.  You Locate settings all seem decent enough (although I would personally uncheck a couple more things) but your model itself is a problem.  Because you built that unit out of so many other individual cabinetry components, its difficult to know which ones your dimensions are grabbing onto.  Not only that, but your items aren't even aligned correctly.  Your soffit for example is offset from the items below by a fraction of an inch. 

 

Anyway, its not that what you're doing is wrong per se (aside from the misalignment), but you are indeed causing yourself dimension problems if you're going to be modeling that way with all the parts and pieces.

 

I would also suggest you take to heart what Mick said about changing your Reach settings--particularly if you're going to be modeling out of parts and pieces like that a lot.  It will make it a lot easier top avoid picking up on unwanted items.

 

Now more specifically in regard to your modeling habits...I would suggest you consider trying to work with fewer cabinet components unless you need to use multiple pieces for some reason.  That upper unit for example could pretty easily be built out of a single cabinet.

 

3 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Ding ding ding!!!

 

Its been stated and alluded to a few times in this thread, but your locate settings aren't controlling or filtering anything when you edit your dimensions after the fact (which is what you have to be doing if you're always using End to End Dimensions).  The only exception is when you use the circular Add Segments edit handle.  From the Help file....

 

"The Add Segments handles are located just past the ends of the dimension line and are used to increase the length of the dimension line and locate additional objects with it. The types of objects and their mark points that can be located with this method are dependent on the Dimension Defaults that the selected dimension line inherits its settings from, as well as the tool used to draw it. The Status Bar reports a selected dimension line's type, as does its specification dialog. See Dimension Panel."

 

You can toggle which locate settings are used in the individual Dimension Line Specification dialogs.

Hi Michael,

 

Here is some advise to you.  You are not a people person and are just on here to sell your services, I can't believe that you are a Kitchen Designer and actually meet people in person.

Out of everyone that has been responding and trying to help you have done nothing but try to find error in how I am using this program. You are also very condescending in your responses. Ding, Ding Ding, do you think you are talking to one of your employees?  I feel very bad for them if you do have employees.  If you actually read what I have posted you would see what was going on but you obviously don't.  I have done just fine until this version and will get training if needed. I have been using this program for about 7 years successfully and will NEVER use this forum again. I thought I would talk to other users just to see if they were experiencing the same issues so that I could make a decision on what to do. When you are using this program, meeting with clients, accepting deliveries and working with installers you don't have the time to know every little thing about this program.  I bought Chief because it was user friendly.  This Version has some changes and I am not the only one having new issues.  I will figure it out, other people who responded actually gave me good advice and were kind, Thank You to everyone except Alaskan Son.  Find a job that does not involve humans!

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, Whitehorse said:

 

Hi Michael,

 

Here is some advise to you.  You are not a people person and are just on here to sell your services, I can't believe that you are a Kitchen Designer and actually meet people in person.

Out of everyone that has been responding and trying to help you have done nothing but try to find error in how I am using this program. You are also very condescending in your responses. Ding, Ding Ding, do you think you are talking to one of your employees?  I feel very bad for them if you do have employees.  If you actually read what I have posted you would see what was going on but you obviously don't.  I have done just fine until this version and will get training if needed. I have been using this program for about 7 years successfully and will NEVER use this forum again. I thought I would talk to other users just to see if they were experiencing the same issues so that I could make a decision on what to do. When you are using this program, meeting with clients, accepting deliveries and working with installers you don't have the time to know every little thing about this program.  I bought Chief because it was user friendly.  This Version has some changes and I am not the only one having new issues.  I will figure it out, other people who responded actually gave me good advice and were kind, Thank You to everyone except Alaskan Son.  Find a job that does not involve humans!

Debbie I am not sure where the frustrations lie but I made a video that should help you out a ton.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArIPOe8v1SrklZxd3TbEXp3onVYy2w?e=DtMo0U

[Kbird1]

19 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

Debbie I am not sure where the frustrations lie but I made a video that should help you out a ton.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArIPOe8v1SrklZxd3TbEXp3onVYy2w?e=DtMo0U

 

Nice Demo Rene .....

 

Mick