GeneDavis

CAD detail from view of truss detail is wonky for me

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Open up the CAD detail, if you have a truss or trusses in your plan, and you get non-editable images of the truss or trusses.

 

Now make a CAD detail from view of that detail.  See if in that new detail, you can work with the CAD.  'Cause I cannot, and wonder why.  And I just tried it in brand new unspoiled little plan and same.

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Gene,

Unlock the Framing, Roof Trusses layer in your cad detail.

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Interesting, Glenn, but why would it lock what I believe to be just a 2D CAD copy of the trusses.  Now I am afraid to touch the one of concern, thinking that this CAD detail is somehow linked to the 3D truss in the model.

 

I did not know that creating a CAD detail from view created its own layerset, which it seems it has.  Straight to ALDO.

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Interesting, Glenn, but why would it lock what I believe to be just a 2D CAD copy of the trusses.  Now I am afraid to touch the one of concern, thinking that this CAD detail is somehow linked to the 3D truss in the model.

The Truss Detail is not "just a 2D CAD copy of the trusses".

The truss detail IS linked to the 3d truss in the model.

Once you unlock the Framing, Roof Trusses layer, you can edit the members that make up the truss - the members are 3D objects.

Any changes you make to the truss in the truss detail will be reflected in the 3D truss in the model.

 

I don't quite follow why you are talking about cad detail from view and why you did that? 

Or maybe in the quote above, you are talking about the cad detail from view you made from the truss detail - can you clarify a bit more. 

Any changes to the cad detail from view you made will not affect the truss in the truss detail or 3D model - the cad detail from view is all simple cad.

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It sounds to me like we (you) need to clarify some things and use the correct terminology.  We have Truss Details and we have CAD Details

 

Truss details are essentially a section view of the actual truss framing.  Any changes to the framing in the truss detail will actually change the truss framing in the model just as Glenn pointed out above.  You may have some layers locked in the Detail Layer set by default.  The 2 main layers you need to be concerned with are "Framing, Roof Trusses" and "Roofs, Gable Lines".   I would recommend keeping the latter layer locked unless you really know what you're doing with it. 

 

CAD Details are exactly that...CAD details.  No connection to the model whatsoever.  If you use the CAD Detail From View it uses whatever layer set you're currently in and creates a new CAD Detail using that same layer set.  In the truss example, if you open a Truss Detail and click CAD Detail From View, the CAD items will be placed onto the same layers as the items they're representing, so again, your 2 main layers will be "Framing, Roof Trusses" and "Roofs, Gable Lines".  If they were locked originally, they still be locked. 

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The reason I wanted to do a CAD detail from view of the truss was this truss.  See the pics.

 

For a dutch gable feature with a window in the gable (lighting storage space in an attic over a garage), the truss engineer says they can make the truss with its full girder features (100 psf ground snow load, 30 foot span) where highlighted, and above in the gable area, same truss, a dropped-top end wall gable truss, with the window opening in it.

 

Chief cannot meet the challenge of modeling this truss, with the as-is code.  What I wanted to do was to simply draw a reasonable representation of this quite special truss in 2D, and show it with a note on the roof framing page of the con docs, really just to show my client, the builder, where this is going.  The CAD detail was to be a start.

 

It turns out that the CAD detail Chief creates (Truss Detail), if you unlock the layer, is showing us SOLIDS.  Doing a CAD detail from the view, gives you CAD lines, on the same layer as the solids.  Select and edit anything in the detail from view, and the truss is unaffected in the 3D model. 

 

But now this little exercise has led me to something new that is really cool.  You can go to the Chief-generated Truss Detail page in CAD Details, unlock the layer Framing, Roof Trusses, and have your way, your own very way, with trusses.

 

Chief creates, for the purpose of a semi-realistic 3D rendering for framing, a truss as a group of solids, think polyline solids, one for every chord and web of the truss.  When you unlock the layer, you can manipulate and sort of edit those chord and web elements.  You can definitely take an endwall gable truss and edit it to create a framed window opening.

 

But I don't really need to do this, as I have had the back and forth with the truss guy, and copied the builder in on the emails from both sides.  I'm attaching an image of that truss after I tried a little editing.

2020-10-22 07_55_26-Chief Architect Premier X12.png

2020-10-22 07_55_46-Chief Architect Premier X12.png

2020-10-22 07_57_08-Chief Architect Premier X12.png

2020-10-22 08_22_27-Chief Architect Premier X12.png

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1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

Chief cannot meet the challenge of modeling this truss, with the as-is code.

Wrong, my friend, Chief CAN model it but not automatically. It would require manual editing. It is also an exercise in futility on your part, as any truss manufacturer would only need to derive (from your plans) the perimeter constraints of the truss, and the size and location of the rough opening. You and the truss supplier would be better served by a basic section view NOT displaying a truss, but rather the aforementioned information. IF you absolutely needed to show a corresponding view including the actual truss, it would be much simpler to provide the truss supplier with the view type I just mentioned, then have the truss supplier provide you with a CAD drawing of their resulting truss, after they have designed it and run it through their software to ensure the truss design is correct. You could use that CAD drawing in section view or you could place it in the TRUSS DETAIL and use it as a guide to edit the members of the truss. 

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OK, model me the truss.  2x4 webbing and 2x6 top and bottom and overhangs for the bottom girder part, reduced gable endwall at top, and with a 27x27 window opening where it belongs.  I am not interested in seeing just the truss envelope, but the details, the heavier parts for the structural part, and the 2x3 verts on 24 centers for the gable end upper part, plus all fours side members of the window opening.

 

Here is the file.

 

 

Wonky Truss.plan

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Gene, here is one I did recently. I wish I had a truss company like Rob that could do stuff like this without drawings but my truss company has difficulty even with drawings.  Not nearly as difficult to do it in chief though.   The tough part was re-cutting the opening with a chain saw on the top of the ladder because they could not get the trusses right even after finally getting the drawings correct.

 

image.thumb.png.071ccbb6b02937ccf341edc5c7d22093.png

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Gene, did you watch the video I posted in your other thread?  

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11 minutes ago, Chopsaw said:

I wish I had a truss company like Rob that could do stuff like this without drawings

This made me chuckle Chop! To be clear, I don't expect anyone to do this without drawings. I'd supply them with the pertinent info: run, pitch heel height, overhang, r.o. location in x and z axis. Their software handles the sizing of the various members.

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1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

OK, model me the truss

I believe that was intended to be sent to the truss mfr. ;)

You get their drawings, and if this is simply a challenge for the sake of proving it can be done, I'll gladly take that on, and I'll post a video of the process. But I'm not a cart before the horse kinda guy. Approve truss drawings first! Then I'll model it in Chief to match their drawing exactly. I'll even include the mending plates.

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Yes, Michael, I watched the video, which showed how to do a big rectangular notch in a truss where a window is desired, but as you explain in the exercise, you cannot work the under-window part to get the truss to have a hole in it.

 

My truss is a hybrid with a hole.  Hybrid in that its upper half is an endwall drop-gable type, with a window hole, and its lower half is a workhorse of a girder, picking up a 3-foot wide tributary area of roof load, and carrying along its one side the load of all the monotruss jacks hanging onto it.

 

Chief would have to give us "pony-truss" modeling plus framing for windows.  See the CAD sketch attached.  The truss guy has all the specs and will produce his drawings when this one comes up in the queue.

 

 

2020-10-22 13_37_01-Chief Architect Premier X12.png

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59 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

but as you explain in the exercise, you cannot work the under-window part to get the truss to have a hole in it.

Seems like you didn't watch the whole thing. I showed later in the video how to edit the truss members to rectify that limitation.  Anyway,  I see that your plan is a little more complicated, but the basics remain the same.  Edit the truss envelope as necessary, and then do the rest of what you need in the truss detail.  Get really familiar with using these tools in particular...

Tools.thumb.jpg.ab466af6ae32f3abd3b9805357c29b3e.jpg

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Quick followup note on the video I posted yesterday before heading out the door:  The methods I covered aren’t necessarily the best or fastest route, and even using those same methods, in retrospect there are a few things I could have done differently to speed up the process.  Anyway, its just a crash course in a few little truss modeling tricks we can use, and certainly not a best practices video.  

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3 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Anyway, its just a crash course in a few little truss modeling tricks we can use, and certainly not a best practices video.  

Just finished watching when you posted this. When do we get the 'best practices video?  :lol:
This was great, really shows what is 'possible' in the right hands, but definitely also shows it is pretty grueling to do.   Impressive though.  Thanks for sharing. 

Having watched... ideas for Chief improvements pop into my head ... how some kind of a knife tool to cut framing members. Something you don't have to continually copy paste move rotate and then delete.  A similar Cad detail from view tool would be nice too... copy the part needed from the detail and the detail disappears without having to go find and delete it manually.

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1 hour ago, DzinEye said:

how some kind of a knife tool to cut framing members. Something you don't have to continually copy paste move rotate and then delete.

 

I like this idea.  Actually, I would be fine with simply having the ability to use polylines.  Lines and polylines work, but they will only cut the framing members square.  I didn't do it in the video, but just FYI, you can also drag out General Framing members in a truss detail and use those instead of copying and pasting members.  I can get pretty sloppy and inefficient with the tools I use sometimes. 

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1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

I would be fine with simply having the ability to use polylines

Yes, line and/or polyline is exactly what I was thinking, but the specifics of it being a knife would be that soon as you make your cut it disappears automatically (could be a setting if you don't want it to)... but also the knife polyline could be you select a line or framing member and the cursor becomes the cutting polyline parallel with the member you clicked on.. then you could grab and manipulate handles on that line to create a polyline knife

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2 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Yes, line and/or polyline is exactly what I was thinking, but the specifics of it being a knife would be that soon as you make your cut it disappears automatically (could be a setting if you don't want it to)... but also the knife polyline could be you select a line or framing member and the cursor becomes the cutting polyline parallel with the member you clicked on.. then you could grab and manipulate handles on that line to create a polyline knife

 

Ya, I totally get it.  This would be a very good suggestion and would be handy for trimming framing members in other places as well (decks, railings, rafters, wall details, etc.)

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15 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Yes, line and/or polyline is exactly what I was thinking, but the specifics of it being a knife would be that soon as you make your cut it disappears automatically (could be a setting if you don't want it to)... but also the knife polyline could be you select a line or framing member and the cursor becomes the cutting polyline parallel with the member you clicked on.. then you could grab and manipulate handles on that line to create a polyline knife

Just a note that you can use the break tool to break it in place just like a knife but then you have to adjust the other piece or delete it.  But if you are deleting it you can select a line and cut everything past it as well...  not exactly the same as what you are saying but definitely a quick way of doing it.

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15 minutes ago, rgardner said:

Just a note that you can use the break tool to break it in place just like a knife but then you have to adjust the other piece or delete it.  But if you are deleting it you can select a line and cut everything past it as well...  not exactly the same as what you are saying but definitely a quick way of doing it.

 

Hey, thanks for the tip Ryan, I've randomly used the break tool on framing in the past, but never made it part of my regular workflow.  It never occured to me how much more efficient it would make certain operations.  Very good tip.  Thanks!

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3 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Hey, thanks for the tip Ryan, I've randomly used the break tool on framing in the past, but never made it part of my regular workflow.  It never occured to me how much more efficient it would make certain operations.  Very good tip.  Thanks!

Glad it helped!

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6 hours ago, rgardner said:

Just a note that you can use the break tool to break it in place just like a knife but then you have to adjust the other piece or delete it.

Thanks Ryan!  I assume though that this is limited to square cuts/breaks like line would do ?

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On 10/23/2020 at 4:16 PM, DzinEye said:

Thanks Ryan!  I assume though that this is limited to square cuts/breaks like line would do ?

Much faster than drawing a line or using another member to make a square cut.  No need to use trim either for one-off cuts.  

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