SNestor

Split Level Plan Help

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Attached is a test plan for a split level home.  The left side of the floor plan...the floor elevation is "zero".  On the right side is the split.  The main room to the right is raised 36" and is to have a vaulted ceiling.  There is a garage below this room. 

 

Between the entry and the raised room there will be a half wall (I've used a railing wall...).  

 

I've tried a lot of things...but, as you will see in the attached screen clips...because I'm using a railing wall to divide the elevated floor from the "entry" floor 36" below...the attic wall is not generating correctly. 

 

Have I drawn this split level plan correctly...or, is there a better way?  I'm not expert on split levels (obviously).  Any help or ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks!

 

Test Plan attached: Split Level Plan Test.plan

 

2020-04-15_11-55-40.thumb.png.d9376dd3865f9941eef2bf9ec807b0d6.png 2020-04-15_11-53-05.thumb.png.3716c78b69442cd7503dad3da6ba4ed8.png 2020-04-15_11-52-18.thumb.png.3c4fdbe032dba6e5aef6bebb15046c7a.png

 

Split Level Plan Test.plan

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Nestor,

I unchecked the attic walls from pony walls to just exterior attic walls, and then edited the polylines to fit the space, inside and out. I believe it was the ponywall setting that made this overly hard.

 

DJP

 

Nestor.zip

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26 minutes ago, DavidJPotter said:

Nestor,

I unchecked the attic walls from pony walls to just exterior attic walls, and then edited the polylines to fit the space, inside and out. I believe it was the ponywall setting that made this overly hard.

 

DJP

 

Nestor.zip

 

Thanks David.  I never want to "shape" walls if possible...so, it never crossed my mind.  Is this really the only way?  Chief won't create these attic walls automatically?

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Steve,

 

I know Dan and others decry wall polyline shaping but I tend to like "WHAT WORKS!!!", if someone else finds another workable way, I am interested but not otherwise. I gave up on Chief's "automaticities" years ago

 

DJP

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Steve,  I copied a wall from second floor and pasted in place in attic above and checked ROOF CUTS WALL AT BOTTOM.  No manual editing of wall.

 

I did not find a big issue with this method.  Let me know what you think.

 

1698766048_ScreenShot2020-04-15at10_12_30AM.thumb.png.f1ac1042cc4b701c4fc517e07575625b.png

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1 hour ago, dshall said:

Steve,  I copied a wall from second floor and pasted in place in attic above and checked ROOF CUTS WALL AT BOTTOM.  No manual editing of wall.

 

I did not find a big issue with this method.  Let me know what you think.

 

1698766048_ScreenShot2020-04-15at10_12_30AM.thumb.png.f1ac1042cc4b701c4fc517e07575625b.png

 

Scott...thanks!  You nailed it...(I'm not really surprised ^_^)

 

Now...why do we have to intervene manually to get this to work...or do we?  Did I do something wrong creating this project?  

I guess I'm wondering why Chief doesn't create the required attic walls automatically. 

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21 minutes ago, SNestor said:

 

I guess I'm wondering why Chief doesn't create the required attic walls automatically. 

I think this is one of Chief's big drawbacks...its forced automatic walls. A carpenter can build a wall any shape very easily...we cannot. I'd give my left.....well let's just say I'd give a lot to have true and full polyline control of a wall shape. Edit the polyline, and the wall would FRAME to that polyline and give you edge control for finish material wrapping! Oh but a boy can dream!

 

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@SNestor

One of the issues with your test plan is that the rooms and the ceiling heights haven't been defined. Chief would like a proper ceiling height in order to decide where a wall should be built up to. These ceiling heights should match the top plate height of the exterior walls for the roof covering that room. Then, and only then will Chief's functions work correctly.

No offense intended but this test isn't ideal because Chief needs more info. It's a bit of a 'cart before the horse' type of test plan.

These screenshots are taken after the rooms were defined, and then I adjusted the walls properties. No polyline editing.

 

image.thumb.png.202b28cca046965664c5ed3757579567.pngimage.thumb.png.0ec6029ce1ee3609342f6cfdf00aee38.png

image.thumb.png.ed98ebf88b016f96690dd1ebbecd3c19.png

 

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20 minutes ago, robdyck said:

@SNestor

One of the issues with your test plan is that the rooms and the ceiling heights haven't been defined. Chief would like a proper ceiling height in order to decide where a wall should be built up to. These ceiling heights should match the top plate height of the exterior walls for the roof covering that room. Then, and only then will Chief's functions work correctly.

No offense intended but this test isn't ideal because Chief needs more info. It's a bit of a 'cart before the horse' type of test plan.

These screenshots are taken after the rooms were defined, and then I adjusted the walls properties. No polyline editing.

 

image.thumb.png.202b28cca046965664c5ed3757579567.pngimage.thumb.png.0ec6029ce1ee3609342f6cfdf00aee38.png

image.thumb.png.ed98ebf88b016f96690dd1ebbecd3c19.png

 

 

Room heights are certainly defined...I'm well aware of that requirement. 

Screen shot is directly from the test plan I attached...not sure what you are looking at.

 

2020-04-15_16-08-05.thumb.png.4971ca66c88d4dfa4d3e4f51e2075184.png

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8 minutes ago, SNestor said:

 

Room heights are certainly defined...I'm well aware of that requirement. 

Screen shot is directly from the test plan I attached...not sure what you are looking at.

Hey Steve, just trying to offer my take on it. I've done around a hundred split-levels...I've at least got some ideas as to what works.

And yes, you have a defined ceiling height, but not the room. And the ceiling height is defined incorrectly, at least for the purposes of building it correctly in Chief. That's my take on it. And it works.

image.thumb.png.7873d181765483f3793ef1feac39b01e.png

image.thumb.png.d117b7ac0057d619389bcd247f574086.png

image.thumb.png.0cc674ebc0b55f65a0a59472d8d20810.png

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@robdyck - a specific “room” type isn’t required.  The only thing a room spec would change is the flooring and molding.  The room type doesn’t specify the ceiling height...that’s a floor default.  And...since this is a split level...I have raised the floor 36” in the room...so the defaults are not relevant.  
 

Your post was helpful.  I think “balloon” through for some of the walls is an important step.  Thanks. 

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Here's a video...might help clear up some questions...or, possibly generate even more questions.

  I have to say...split levels creates a lot of issues.  This doesn't seem to be an easy thing to accomplish in Chief...at least for me.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, SNestor said:

 a specific “room” type isn’t required.  The only thing a room spec would change is the flooring and molding. 

Of course. My thinking is that its just an indication or a 'cue' that the rooms and their properties have been addressed. 

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1 hour ago, robdyck said:

Of course. My thinking is that its just an indication or a 'cue' that the rooms and their properties have been addressed. 

It was just a quickie test plan...formality wasn’t a concern.  

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Interesting.  Didn't open your test plan but just helped someone else with an elevation issue for a polyline solid he put in the plan.  He hadn't specified the different rooms and even though each room had the ceiling and floor heights set properly it automatically went with the lowest possible setting to figure the floor height (in this case his specified garage floor which is set in his preferences to be 18" below the other floor.  So it put the polyline solid in the wrong spot when he tried to specify it from the floor height.

 

I am thinking that in your case what Robert is saying may have some validity, chief doesn't like the unknown and thus is playing wonky until it is set correct.  Hope you like my super technical terminology.  Anyways just a thought...

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1 hour ago, rgardner said:

Interesting.  Didn't open your test plan but just helped someone else with an elevation issue for a polyline solid he put in the plan.  He hadn't specified the different rooms and even though each room had the ceiling and floor heights set properly it automatically went with the lowest possible setting to figure the floor height (in this case his specified garage floor which is set in his preferences to be 18" below the other floor.  So it put the polyline solid in the wrong spot when he tried to specify it from the floor height.

 

I am thinking that in your case what Robert is saying may have some validity, chief doesn't like the unknown and thus is playing wonky until it is set correct.  Hope you like my super technical terminology.  Anyways just a thought...


A garage room is unique...more things can be specified.  A deck, porch and balcony room type have some unique controls also.  
 

A general room type - like “Living Room” does not control floor or ceiling elevation. 

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3 hours ago, SNestor said:


A garage room is unique...more things can be specified.  A deck, porch and balcony room type have some unique controls also.  
 

A general room type - like “Living Room” does not control floor or ceiling elevation. 

Yes and you are probably right that it didn’t affect this but the plan I saw today he had not specified any of the rooms so it grabbed the garage elevation for its floor height and so his p solid was 18” from the floor.  Once I set the room type and put in a new p solid it was correct.  Just thought it could maybe have affected your issue too.  Could be.  I generally don’t worry about any of the attic walls until my plan is way more advanced and room definitions is something I have noticed usually makes  differences in little things.  
 

Anyways was just a thought that maybe Robert wasn’t that far off on this.

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11 hours ago, SNestor said:

A general room type - like “Living Room” does not control floor or ceiling elevation. 

7 hours ago, rgardner said:

Anyways was just a thought that maybe Robert wasn’t that far off on this.

 

 

Just to clarify my suggestion: I wasn't intimating that the Room Type carried any special properties that would help with the building of the original offending walls.

However seeing a room type as UNSPECIFIED makes me wonder if the rooms STRUCTURE properties have been addressed. An examination of the image below reveals a few oddities:

  1. The ceiling height in view "elevation 1" measures 9'-1 1/8"
  2. but the room in view "elevation 1" appears higher...perhaps 12'-1 1/8" as indicated in the dialog box.
  3. the top plate height is somewhere in between those 2 elevations.

Chief's modeling of walls won't like this 'discrepancy' or ambiguity of structural elevations. So my only point was that it's helpful (to Chief) to ensure the model is accurate by addressing the properties of each room for the purpose of the original topic...to get those odd walls built correctly.

image.png.409f42434e29cc26baa7a76ee6486696.png

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@robdyck - Thanks Rob for taking the time to investigate the plan I attached.  It was just a quickie "test plan"...and I did not notice the ceiling height was not the standard 109.125 in the vaulted space that I was designating as the entry to this split level home.  

 

This ceiling height changed on it's own somewhere in the process of messing with the plan.  Maybe it happened when I built the foundation...I'm really not sure.  However, it isn't the problem either way.  If you open the plan and change the ceiling height to 109.125...the hole in the gable end will still occur.  Maybe once the gable end was "screwed up"...the software won't fix itself when the ceiling height is corrected...that is possible.   

 

Thanks again for taking the time....why don't you start from scratch and duplicate the plan and see what happens.  I'd be interested....I still don't know what I'm doing wrong or if the software just doesn't behave properly.  

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10 minutes ago, SNestor said:

why don't you start from scratch and duplicate the plan and see what happens.  I'd be interested....I still don't know what I'm doing wrong or if the software just doesn't behave properly.  

I'll see if I can today yet. In your video I really liked your expression about Chief's behavior! Random bs that just drives a guy insane!

Right now, I've got a plan almost done...except I have a wall material that won't generate properly in elevation or section views...but only from the front! From the sides and rear it's fine. Curses, Curses, Curses!!! If I take a cad detail from view, there's nothing! And I'm supposed to print this today.

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OK...new video.  This should clear things up...well, maybe.  @robdyck-Thanks

 

In this video...I got this to work.  But - the process is not "intuitive". I guess you just have to experiment and learn.  

 

 

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28 minutes ago, SNestor said:

OK...new video.  This should clear things up...well, maybe.  @robdyck-Thanks

 

In this video...I got this to work.  But - the process is not "intuitive". I guess you just have to experiment and learn.  

 

 

As I posted on your YouTube channel, I remember a split level I did a couple months ago and it kicked my butt so badly I ended up with p-line solids and shifted walls and finally got it done but wow, what an ordeal. Even now I tried to follow your video and through no fault of your excellent tutorial I ended up with such a mess that I simply gave up as I'm too busy to mess with it. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but have been using Chief for 20 years and still can't understand some of the paradigms and convoluted methods. I'll return here for my next split level but for now it's simply over my pay grade. Thanks again.

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@HumbleChief   Thanks Larry...split levels are certainly not easy.  

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@SNestor

4:51 of the video:

One of the things I'd be doing differently is with the lower roof. I'd have it build TO the upper wall, not under the upper wall. Now I realize that probably won't put the ceiling where you'd like, but I'd also be using a ceiling plane for the vaulted ceiling.

I use No Special Snapping, and I draw my roof planes up to the sheathing layer where they butt against a wall. 

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