TheKitchenAbode

X12 Beta - Some DBX Entries Aren't Retained ???

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Has anyone else noticed this. For example, if you open up a Materials DBX and directly enter a number and then press OK the entry is not retained and the previous entry remains. So far I have noticed this for two entries in the Materials DBX, one is when setting the scale for a bump map and the other is when setting emissive. To get the entry to stick I have to click on something else and then press OK.

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1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

To get the entry to stick I have to click on something else and then press OK.

I noticed this sometimes in X11 also. Just entered the number, tabbed, and moved on when it happened; it always seemed random.

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Just now, Ridge_Runner said:

I noticed this sometimes in X11 also. Just entered the number, tabbed, and moved on when it happened; it always seemed random.

 

Never noticed this before but in X12 it happens all the time with those two settings. I use these settings all the time and never noticed it in X11.

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2 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

I use these settings all the time and never noticed it in X11.

The times I noticed it were not necessarily the two you are having trouble with; they were usually in other dbx's. Guess it could have just been user error...maybe...possibly...who knows.

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As a general matter of policy, I always hit the tab key after entering info. into data entry fields so I’m not sure I would ever notice this particular issue.  

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18 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

As a general matter of policy, I always hit the tab key after entering info. into data entry fields so I’m not sure I would ever notice this particular issue.  

I noticed that when I started with x10 and got in the habit pretty quick of hitting tab as it always makes it stick.  I believe it is the whole undo/save issue that was talked about in the cabinet dbx thread the other day.  It's chief's way of saving us if we make a mistake.

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3 minutes ago, rgardner said:

I noticed that when I started with x10 and got in the habit pretty quick of hitting tab as it always makes it stick.  I believe it is the whole undo/save issue that was talked about in the cabinet dbx thread the other day.  It's chief's way of saving us if we make a mistake.

 

That would be understandable if they were consistent. In the materials DBX all other entries will stick by just pressing OK, no need to tab. Why just these two?

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2 minutes ago, rgardner said:

I noticed that when I started with x10 and got in the habit pretty quick of hitting tab as it always makes it stick.  I believe it is the whole undo/save issue that was talked about in the cabinet dbx thread the other day.  It's chief's way of saving us if we make a mistake.


Hitting tab does a few things.  It forces the operation to get executed which helps immediately bring attention to any errors.  That execution also carries out any calculations that were placed into that field...again helping you to catch any errors, and it updates the entire dialog to accommodate any changes in that particular field...yet again giving you a chance to catch any errors.  Simply clicking Okay or hitting enter can subvert all of that.  You don’t know if you’ve messed something up or incorrectly entered anything until you noticed unexpected results at some later time.  

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I also got into the habit of using the tab key on any entry years ago.

 I remember Steve Blake teaching that in his classes so that behavior has been around for quite some time.

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I understand the point being made about the tab key but then why is it only some of the time?

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After a lifetime of working in software I can say that's definitely a bug :-)

 

Those two examples are both up/down edit controls rather than plain edits and trying shading contrast which is the same type with a direct number change shows the same issue.

 

In general there should never be the need to do anything other than hit the OK button.  Any validation that would occur when tabbing to the next input field or delayed update of other values (such as keep aspect ratio etc) should then be applied before closing if valid.

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8 hours ago, Smn842 said:

After a lifetime of working in software I can say that's definitely a bug :-)

 

Those two examples are both up/down edit controls rather than plain edits and trying shading contrast which is the same type with a direct number change shows the same issue.

 

In general there should never be the need to do anything other than hit the OK button.  Any validation that would occur when tabbing to the next input field or delayed update of other values (such as keep aspect ratio etc) should then be applied before closing if valid.

 

That's also my thoughts. The fields I mentioned appear to be single independent entries, no other fields in the DBX appear to be reliant upon that fields data. I understand for example in say the DBX for roof planes, in the DBX there are 4 or 5 fields that are interdependent, the input in one field is used to compute the remaining fields and this should be seen by the user before they do a final validation by pressing OK. Even in this situation I find the approach a bit unusual as there is no oblivious indicator that additional validation is required and if so what key or button does one press to initiate validation. In other software I use DBX's will often have at least three buttons "Close", "Apply", "Cancel" and possibly a forth button "Reset". This type of DBX nomenclature is very familiar and obvious to even the least experienced user. CA on the other hand uses "OK" and "Cancel", as far as I'm concerned "OK" means "OK", by pressing this I'm telling CA to take my input and proceed, not ignore my input and close the DBX. If CA wishes to keep the "OK" then when I press "OK" it should, if an entry requires but has not been validated by some other means such as "Tabbing" pop up an additional box with an option such as to "Close without Updating" or "Update and Close".

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17 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

In other software I use DBX's will often have at least three buttons "Close", "Apply", "Cancel" and possibly a forth button "Reset".

 

Same here. Reset is very handy.

 

18 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

as far as I'm concerned "OK" means "OK"

 

Yes it should. And always, not randomly.

 

14 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

That would be understandable if they were consistent. In the materials DBX all other entries will stick by just pressing OK, no need to tab. Why just these two?

 

Allowing the OK to be pressed without executing the update, and not alerting the user, is incorrect behavior. This should be reported.

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Just got back to my computer and tested this out.  I agree.  It looks like a bug.  And I confirmed that it didn't behave that way in X11.  Again, it's not something I would have personally noticed because I tend to always hit tab.  I'm not saying that to suggest it should be required, just to point out why its easy to overlook issues like this.  Hopefully you reported it if you want to see it fixed. 

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On 2/15/2020 at 3:02 PM, TheKitchenAbode said:

So far I have noticed this for two entries in the Materials DBX, one is when setting the scale for a bump map and the other is when setting emissive.

 

10 hours ago, Smn842 said:

Those two examples are both up/down edit controls rather than plain edits and trying shading contrast which is the same type with a direct number change shows the same issue.

 

Just as a side note, but there is still a good reason to hit tab or click on something else  in the given examples.  The preview window won't update until you do. 

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2 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

 

 

Just as a side note, but there is still a good reason to hit tab or click on something else  in the given examples.  The preview window won't update until you do. 

 

Yes, I realize this is the case but using the Tab key seems to be a best kept secret. Just checking the knowledge base and there is no mention anywhere as to the need to do this. Even in articles on roofs, they state "Click OK to Close Dialog and Confirm Changes".

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8 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Yes, I realize this is the case but using the Tab key seems to be a best kept secret. Just checking the knowledge base and there is no mention anywhere as to the need to do this. Even in articles on roofs, they state "Click OK to Close Dialog and Confirm Changes". 

 

I get it.  I'm just suggesting that it's good practice whether its written anywhere or not.  And by the way, they do touch on the behavior and recommend it in a number of places in the Help files and in the Tutorial Guide.

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Just now, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I get it.  I'm just suggesting that it's good practice whether its written anywhere or not.  And by the way, they do touch on the behavior and recommend it in a number of places in the Help files and in the Tutorial Guide.

 

No doubt and I did just find some articles that mention "Press Tab to Update Dialog". At the end of the day I'm just suggesting that Chief should somehow make things like this more obvious, especially for less knowledgeable users. In my example concerning the materials DBX, a user changing the emissive setting and ,pressing "OK" may not realize that their new setting was not applied, they could easily assume it was, but the reason it's not showing any change is due to something else being incorrect, they then go off and start playing with the sun, other lights or other settings as they attempt to get the emissive to work, while all the time not realizing that it failed to work because the Dialog was not updated before pressing OK.

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Just checked out the Roof Plane DBX and there is no requirement to press "Tab", just enter a new setting for pitch, baseline, etc and press OK, changes are applied without having to update the dialog box first.

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The issue in X12 only seems to be affecting numerical entry fields with the little up-and-down arrows.

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Please be sure to always report any problems like this directly to our tech support team.  Don't just discuss these things on the forums or we may never hear about them.

 

And just as an FYI, hitting tab to update a control and change focus to the next one is standard Windows behavior and has been that way since as long as I can remember.  We generally don't try to document standard Windows behaviors since this would make the manuals much longer.

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3 minutes ago, Dermot said:

Please be sure to always report any problems like this directly to our tech support team.  Don't just discuss these things on the forums or we may never hear about them.

 

And just as an FYI, hitting tab to update a control and change focus to the next one is standard Windows behavior and has been that way since as long as I can remember.  We generally don't try to document standard Windows behaviors since this would make the manuals much longer.

 

I understand but my purpose in discussing this is to confirm that what I'm experiencing is actual a problem worthy of reporting versus just something that I'm not doing correctly or just misunderstanding.

 

Aware that Tabbing is a standard means/method to cycle through the different entries in the Dialog as an alternative to moving the mouse and left clicking. What's being discussed is the need to Tab if one is just changing the data in one field before pressing OK or if Tab needs to be pressed after the last data entry when multiple entries are made before pressing OK.

 

 

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You should not need to hit tab before hitting OK.

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7 minutes ago, Dermot said:

You should not need to hit tab before hitting OK.

 

Thanks Dermot. I believe that confirms that what I have experienced in the materials DBX is therefore an incorrect behavior that should be reported to Tech.

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1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Thanks Dermot. I believe that confirms that what I have experienced in the materials DBX is therefore an incorrect behavior that should be reported to Tech.


I personally won’t likely report this because I don’t care enough, but I’m case you want to add the notes to your report...

 

-The window Lites Across and Lites Vertical (a similar type of data entry with the up/down arrows works fine.

 

-In the Shading Contrast field, notice how the percentage sign is added when you click Okay.  You can just see it before the dialog closes.  So I t looks like the program is executing the setting...it just doesn’t stick.  Similar with the Scale.  If you enter a decimal value without the leading zero or a whole number without the trailing zero, the decimals and zeroes are added when clicking Okay as if the program is doing the right thing.  Again though, it just doesn’t carry through.  

 

 

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