Speed of x11 - finished plans

[johnny]

Chief seems to Choke more than I remember on finished plans.  I have a very fast system and id doesn't seem to improve things too much, which means that its an optimization thing with Chief.   Would the nvidia quadro help with the plans?

[Joe_Carrick]

Johnny,

 

Are you talking about the Plan or Layout?

What sort of slowness are you seeing?

Is it Pan & Zoom?

 

 

[DavidJPotter]

I recently upgraded my PC to the NVIDIA 1080 which seemed to really smooth out general performance for me. Over the years I have seen lots of opinions from end users of Chief that Quadro cards do not help Chief's performance, they do help AutoCAD performance I have heard.

What exactly are you specifically experiencing?

 

DJP

[jorgearaya]

I’m not an expert, but I use several video cards.

Nvidia Quadro is a professional grade card, I run that on a Lenovo P52s and Chief works fine, I see issues with AutoCAD it doesn’t like it.

Radeon Pro 555 also a professional grade, and runs all just fine no lags (Chief, ArchCAD, AutoCAD)

Basic intel integrated card seems to do great too!

Chief recommends “gaming” cards not professional grade. Nvidia gtx 1080 or AMD’s

[jorgearaya]

A good read is the post about stressing Chief, he sheds light on several issues, you’d have to skip a lot of the babble (no disrespect intended) and focus in what the graphics do. And I noted this before in other posts, the differences between gaming (altered cards by laptop makers) and professional grade cards that utilize OEM drivers made to handle larger amounts of polygons. One of the reasons why Macs perform great.

The other thing I always fail to mention is that I exclusively do construction documents, I am not reaching out to the library for anything other than basic fixtures and whatever few solids required.

[TheKitchenAbode]

32 minutes ago, jorgearaya said:

I’m not an expert, but I use several video cards.

Nvidia Quadro is a professional grade card, I run that on a Lenovo P52s and Chief works fine, I see issues with AutoCAD it doesn’t like it.

Radeon Pro 555 also a professional grade, and runs all just fine no lags (Chief, ArchCAD, AutoCAD)

Basic intel integrated card seems to do great too!

Chief recommends “gaming” cards not professional grade. Nvidia gtx 1080 or AMD’s

 

Everything always runs fine as long as the plan remains below a certain level of complexity. Would be interesting if you would run this P-Solid stress test with your graphics cards to see how they perform.

 

Once the plan is loaded, first select the full screen icon and then record the time to reduce it by one magnification. Then reset it back to full screen and then record the time to increase it by one magnification.

 

P Solid Stress.plan

[AgChief]

20 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Everything always runs fine as long as the plan remains below a certain level of complexity. Would be interesting if you would run this P-Solid stress test with your graphics cards to see how they perform.

 

Once the plan is loaded, first select the full screen icon and then record the time to reduce it by one magnification. Then reset it back to full screen and then record the time to increase it by one magnification.

 

P Solid Stress.plan

 

Latency/unresponsiveness has always been a huge aggravation for me with CA.  This simple test took my system about 6 seconds each to increase and decrease magnification.  How can a simple single (albeit large) Psolid bog down the software like this?  Is this typical with everyone's system?

 

Edited to say that I just noticed the 1/16" scale concrete pattern.  That's the reason it's so slow, I realize.  How does CA generate that?  CPU or GPU?

[TheKitchenAbode]

1 minute ago, AgChief said:

 

Latency/unresponsiveness has always been a huge aggravation for me with CA.  This simple test took my system about 6 seconds each to increase and decrease magnification.  How can a simple single (albeit large) Psolid bog down the software like this?  Is this typical with everyone's system?

 

Everyone has the same(similar) experience. It bogs down the system due to the fill, it's set at 1/16" which generates a huge number of vector lines that must be regenerated each time you pan or zoom. This represents what happens as a plans complexity increases, each wall, framing member, cad object and symbol are in plan view vector lines. It was also designed to demonstrate that the number of surfaces are not the only contributor to lag, as this object only has 12 surfaces.  

[pkegles]

On 6/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, johnny said:

Chief seems to Choke more than I remember on finished plans.  I have a very fast system and id doesn't seem to improve things too much, which means that its an optimization thing with Chief.   Would the nvidia quadro help with the plans?

   Try turning layers off (I usually turn the pattern layers off when working on CAD details temporarily.The two Ti 2080s are more than sufficient for Chief, plus a Quadro8000 costs over 9k, the cost doesn't justify it's performance difference. (https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-2080-Ti-vs-Nvidia-Quadro-RTX-8000/4027vsm762332) .

[PerryPlansPro]

I've always had a problem with speed the more complex the design becomes. I've taken a lot of different advice on this issue and nothing seems to make a significant difference.

[wnschoen]

Same here - the more complex the plan, the bigger lag... it kind of sucks, as Chief has gotten more powerful, I obviously want to use more of the available 3D/details/etc of Chief - BUT to use those cool features makes the Plan more complex and then makes it slower/lag.... almost makes you want a simpler version...  bad catch 22 if you ask me.  VERY FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU GET A BIG CLIENT/BIG/COMPLEX PLAN AND IT TAKES FOREVER TO GET THINGS ADJUSTED BECAUSE YOU ARE WAITING ON LAG.

[TheKitchenAbode]

13 hours ago, PerryPlansPro said:

I've taken a lot of different advice on this issue and nothing seems to make a significant difference.

 

This is most likely due to the fact that much of the given advice is often based upon broad generalities concerning computer performance. Though valid it does not reveal the true picture of what's going on in respect to a specific software package, unfortunately this can lead one to misinterpret the role a specific piece of hardware has and its impact on performance. For example, if your monitor is 60Hz and you find the movement on your monitor to be jittery then there may be nothing gained by choosing a graphics card solely on the basis that the new one can put out 120 Fps. First, a 60Hz monitor can only display 60 Fps and no more, secondly all graphics generation involves the CPU and thirdly how the software is written is all part of the involved process. To make the appropriate choice one needs to understand what role each of these have, is it an inherent limitation in the software programing, is the CPU to slow and can't feed the GPU fast enough or is the GPU not fast enough. For CA it can be even more complicated as there are many computational processes that must be done before anything is done on the graphical side, so is it the this that's really the issue, maybe it has nothing to do with the graphical processing/hardware.

[Joe_Carrick]

I think its extremely import to recognize the following:

• The GPU handles almost all of the 3D View processing for "PBR", "Standard" and "Vector" Renders.  The speed of this is dependent on the face counts, GPU speed, etc.
• The CPU handles all the rest of the graphics.  IOW, 2D CAD (Lines, Arcs, 2D Blocks, Text, Rich Text and Macros).  Optimization of 2D CAD can be done by limiting what's processed during Pan/Zoom as well as what Hardware is available (CPU, RAM, etc.) and how the software utilizes that hardware. 

IMO, any discussion of performance needs to be relative to 2D vs 3D - they are not the same.

[TheKitchenAbode]

1 minute ago, Joe_Carrick said:

I think its extremely import to recognize the following:

• The GPU handles almost all of the 3D View processing for "PBR", "Standard" and "Vector" Renders.  The speed of this is dependent on the face counts, GPU speed, etc.
• The CPU handles all the rest of the graphics.  IOW, 2D CAD (Lines, Arcs, 2D Blocks, Text, Rich Text and Macros).  Optimization of 2D CAD can be done by limiting what's processed during Pan/Zoom as well as what Hardware is available (CPU, RAM, etc.) and how the software utilizes that hardware. 

IMO, any discussion of performance needs to be relative to 2D vs 3D - they are not the same.

 

Excellent point. When discussing this it is really important to differentiate between 2D and 3D performance as they involve distinctly different processes.

 

It's also important to recognize that even in 3D CA has to do a lot of computations when one makes changes to their model and these changes are primarily CPU based and they need to be completed before the graphical portion can be updated. 

[PerryPlansPro]

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

This is most likely due to the fact that much of the given advice is often based upon broad generalities concerning computer performance. Though valid it does not reveal the true picture of what's going on in respect to a specific software package, unfortunately this can lead one to misinterpret the role a specific piece of hardware has and its impact on performance. For example, if your monitor is 60Hz and you find the movement on your monitor to be jittery then there may be nothing gained by choosing a graphics card solely on the basis that the new one can put out 120 Fps. First, a 60Hz monitor can only display 60 Fps and no more, secondly all graphics generation involves the CPU and thirdly how the software is written is all part of the involved process. To make the appropriate choice one needs to understand what role each of these have, is it an inherent limitation in the software programing, is the CPU to slow and can't feed the GPU fast enough or is the GPU not fast enough. For CA it can be even more complicated as there are many computational processes that must be done before anything is done on the graphical side, so is it the this that's really the issue, maybe it has nothing to do with the graphical processing/hardware.

Where do you suppose I start in order to figure out the best solution? My 3D fine until I make a change. Would that mean I need to upgrade my CPU?

[Ridge_Runner]

9 minutes ago, PerryPlansPro said:

My 3D fine until I make a change.

How many views do you normally have open? If you have several (using multiple monitors?) this will slow CA down. Also, as others have offered, having more than is needed displayed in the views will slow things down.

[Joe_Carrick]

8 minutes ago, PerryPlansPro said:

Where do you suppose I start in order to figure out the best solution? My 3D fine until I make a change. Would that mean I need to upgrade my CPU?

I would look first at the 3D Layer Set and make sure you don't have the Framing Layers displayed.  In fact, you don't want anything displayed that's not needed for the 3D view.

Also stay away from 3D Plants and other high Poly Count objects.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Just now, PerryPlansPro said:

Where do you suppose I start in order to figure out the best solution?

 

To assist you need to describe precisely the issue you have and what you are attempting to do when things slow down. Better still is to post a problematic plan.

 

Looking at your system specs I'm not to sure there is much room for improvement as far as hardware goes. Your RTX 2080 can't be the problem and you have 32 GB of ram, both of these are far more than what CA needs. Your I7 7700 is a fairly good processor so upgrading this may not provide any significant performance boost, maybe 20% on average, also to upgrade this you will need a new motherboard that will add to the cost.

 

As others are suggesting, managing the display layer options to reduce display complexity is an easy one, especially in plan view if 2D panning and zooming lags. This can also help with 3D camera views but when choosing the things to turn off you need a different approach. In 3D things like textures, the number of active lights, the sun setting and shadow settings have a significant impact, if these are not needed then turn them all off.

 

In 2D plan views everything displayed are vector graphics and to rescale these each time you move around is highly CPU intensive. This is one of the major problems with say 3D plants, their cad blocks are way too complex, all those vector line details have to be recalculated when scaling. This is similar when additional content is imported such as high res pics or PDF content, it's not that the files themselves are a problem it's what has to be done to rescale them each time you pan and zoom.

 

You can also turn-off as many auto-rebuilds as possible so this is not happening to the entire model every time you make a change.

[paulchoate]

I'm in the same boat. I'm running: an AMD Ryzon 7 1800x CPU, Nvidia 1080 GPU, Samsung 960 EVO SSD, 64 MB of memory, two 1080p monitors and an Asus Cross Hair mother board (if that matters). And though I do back up on OneDrive all of my work is done off my hard drive (I've heard working on files online can crash the system or cause other issues). Working on plan files is rarely, if ever, a problem (although I would like to have ZERO lag when going from a plan view to a perspective overview but I can deal with 2 or 3 seconds of lag). The issue I have is when the layout file gets big the lag time I experience for ANY operation on layout is near-unbearable (just moving atext box can result in 10 seconds of lag time!). I'd much prefer to upgrade my computer than to have to watch what I put in my plans (trees, appliances, terrain, etc.). I want to increase the horsepower so to speak but there is so much conflicting advice (Quadros are good. Quadros are bad. More cores, less frequency. More frequency less cores, etc.)  I could care less about ray tracing speed.  And my plans & layouts consist of both 2d and 3d (somebody said something like 2d and 3d are handled very differently by the hardware). I'm willing to spend a good chunk of change on a new computer or hardware (I already spent close to $5k on my current rig) as the lag time kills my drive, motivation, etc,. Sometimes it's so bad it takes the wind right out my sails! So, do I need to add another Nvidia 1080 GPU, change out my 8-core "medium" frequency CPU for a 4-core high frequency CPU, change from Gforce GPU to a Quadro GPU? Please, if anyone has the answers let me know. Tech support can't even answer me. The best I could get from a Chief Tech is to check the formus lol!  Or maybe does having microsft word, excel or quickbooks running on my computer at the same time the problem?

[paulchoate]

11 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

This is most likely due to the fact that much of the given advice is often based upon broad generalities concerning computer performance. Though valid it does not reveal the true picture of what's going on in respect to a specific software package, unfortunately this can lead one to misinterpret the role a specific piece of hardware has and its impact on performance. For example, if your monitor is 60Hz and you find the movement on your monitor to be jittery then there may be nothing gained by choosing a graphics card solely on the basis that the new one can put out 120 Fps. First, a 60Hz monitor can only display 60 Fps and no more, secondly all graphics generation involves the CPU and thirdly how the software is written is all part of the involved process. To make the appropriate choice one needs to understand what role each of these have, is it an inherent limitation in the software programing, is the CPU to slow and can't feed the GPU fast enough or is the GPU not fast enough. For CA it can be even more complicated as there are many computational processes that must be done before anything is done on the graphical side, so is it the this that's really the issue, maybe it has nothing to do with the graphical processing/hardware.

That's all fine but we are talking about Chief and only Chief. We don't need broad, general answers. We need to know what hardware will run Chief. Not just run Chief but run it so there is minimal lag on even the larges of files. 

[paulchoate]

20 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

I would look first at the 3D Layer Set and make sure you don't have the Framing Layers displayed.  In fact, you don't want anything displayed that's not needed for the 3D view.

Also stay away from 3D Plants and other high Poly Count objects.

But that is EXACTLY why we use Chief lol! It's a 3D modeling program and is marketed that way. WE (the designers and builders) don't care about the fluff BUT the fluff is what makes a good layout look Great to clients.  Inserting that fluff into plans Its like staging a house to help it sell. So, that said, if the engineers who make Chief are going to give us all these great 3d features then they really should provide us with some answers like EXACTLY what hardware to use (and not the minimum requirements...we are far beyond minimum here).

[paulchoate]

8 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

To assist you need to describe precisely the issue you have and what you are attempting to do when things slow down. Better still is to post a problematic plan.

 

Looking at your system specs I'm not to sure there is much room for improvement as far as hardware goes. Your RTX 2080 can't be the problem and you have 32 GB of ram, both of these are far more than what CA needs. Your I7 7700 is a fairly good processor so upgrading this may not provide any significant performance boost, maybe 20% on average, also to upgrade this you will need a new motherboard that will add to the cost.

 

As others are suggesting, managing the display layer options to reduce display complexity is an easy one, especially in plan view if 2D panning and zooming lags. This can also help with 3D camera views but when choosing the things to turn off you need a different approach. In 3D things like textures, the number of active lights, the sun setting and shadow settings have a significant impact, if these are not needed then turn them all off.

 

In 2D plan views everything displayed are vector graphics and to rescale these each time you move around is highly CPU intensive. This is one of the major problems with say 3D plants, their cad blocks are way too complex, all those vector line details have to be recalculated when scaling. This is similar when additional content is imported such as high res pics or PDF content, it's not that the files themselves are a problem it's what has to be done to rescale them each time you pan and zoom.

 

You can also turn-off as many auto-rebuilds as possible so this is not happening to the entire model every time you make a change.

Great advice BUT I don't want to turn off layers. I want to use 3D plants. I want my framing on. So, just tell me what I need to do to get it to run faster! PLEASE!

[Joe_Carrick]

2 hours ago, paulchoate said:

Great advice BUT I don't want to turn off layers. I want to use 3D plants. I want my framing on. So, just tell me what I need to do to get it to run faster! PLEASE!

 

Sorry, but you are doing everything possible to make it run slower.  Chief isn't designed to be a "Game" creation tool.  There are other programs that do that.

 

 The 3D in Chief can be used to create pretty good renderings but Chief Architect is really a program to create buildings in 3D with the additional ability to quickly produce Construction Documents.  If this wasn't the case, most of us wouldn't be using it and CA would be out of business fairly quickly.

[paulchoate]

8 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

 

Sorry, but you are doing everything possible to make it run slower.  Chief isn't designed to be a "Game" creation tool.  There are other programs that do that.

 

 The 3D in Chief can be used to create pretty good renderings but Chief Architect is really a program to create buildings in 3D with the additional ability to quickly produce Construction Documents.  If this wasn't the case, most of us wouldn't be using it and CA would be out of business fairly quickly.

Like I said, adding all of the 3D objects are done to give the  clients realistic renderings of what the project can look like. Adding plants, furniture, etc. are a big part of selling a job to clients. If all I wanted to do was draw CAD lines I wouldn't need Chief. Back to my point, is there anyone who can tell me what I can do to speed up my computer if I want to use all of the features Chief offers?

[MarkMc]

47 minutes ago, paulchoate said:

is there anyone who can tell me what I can do to speed up my computer if I want to use all of the features Chief offers?

I can't from a hardware perspective. A lot of little things that are in your control help, which is what is being pointed out.

 

Keep all unused layers are off, control with layer sets. (no reason to have framing on all the time).

Have a working layer set keeping hatching, patterns textures off as much as possible.

Avoid unnecessary anno sets, layer sets, or layers. Import and export as needed.

(To see how this affects things check the file size of a large plan, open it. Then open an OOB plan template. In the first plan-all layers on and unlocked, edit area-all floors, select all copy. Paste into the OOB plan, save as untitled. Compare file sizes.)

Use secondary plans for rendering or lots of interior fixtures (my work revolves around that stuff) or landscape.

Avoid PDFs if at all possible-convert to dwg, text, png.

Schedules only in CAD details, never in floor plan. As much text in CAD details as possible. Use warehouse plans as often as possible.

Often better to convert psolids and the like to symbols. Besides they are easier to reuse and can be saved in specific plans prior to converting for alteration later.

Avoid unnecessary macros.

AND there still will be times that things lag.