Best way to model these exterior end walls


Evolution
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Getting ready to start this remodel project for a non-profit, and have set up my plan and layout templates, but before I began modeling the as-built I was hoping to get suggestions on how to model the end exterior walls (for lack of the correct terminology I'll call them buttress walls although their not true-buttress).   I thought perhaps the best way was to model them as their own rooms, setting the ceiling height as-needed to get the projection beyond and above the other walls, correctly, and shaping the walls with the wall elevation tool.  Then draw the remaining exterior walls between these. Suggestions appreciated. I didn't know how to do a key word search on the forum for this one, but after several futile attempts found nothing. I am aware for each type of wall, I will have to create it's own wall type, but wasn't sure how to do these two end walls. I don't have a plan to post (yet).

 

AS-BUILT Elev.png

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On 5/30/2019 at 7:16 AM, Evolution said:

Getting ready to start this remodel project for a non-profit, and have set up my plan and layout templates, but before I began modeling the as-built I was hoping to get suggestions on how to model the end exterior walls (for lack of the correct terminology I'll call them buttress walls although their not true-buttress).   I thought perhaps the best way was to model them as their own rooms, setting the ceiling height as-needed to get the projection beyond and above the other walls, correctly, and shaping the walls with the wall elevation tool.  Then draw the remaining exterior walls between these. Suggestions appreciated. I didn't know how to do a key word search on the forum for this one, but after several futile attempts found nothing. I am aware for each type of wall, I will have to create it's own wall type, but wasn't sure how to do these two end walls. I don't have a plan to post (yet).

 

AS-BUILT Elev.png

 

 

How did you get on Bob?  I wanted to to try Robert's Roof plane Method as in the past I had just edited the walls in elevation after pulling the Roof planes back to the inner surface of the Gable End walls and then using a Solid or Slab to cap the Walls.

 

The H Shape of the walls isn't something CA expects and it was a bit more work than I thought it should be fixing some wall anomalies in Elevation and 3D views but if you build the house as a rectangle as normal , then open the Gable walls and lock the center , then add say 32" ?, that will give you a 16" projection each side.....I did that each end, starting with the foundation and working my way up , not sure if working down would be better?

 

Adding CAD center-lines through the house makes it fairly easy to use COPY>Reflect about Object to copy roof planes and Slabs to the other end of the house once you have the 1st one/side done.

 

Here is my Play Plan so you can have a look .....Gable End Walls above Roofline.plan

 

image.thumb.png.635adba23eb64a902ec7cfa367df5404.png

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 1:39 PM, Kbird1 said:

 

 

How did you get on Bob?  I wanted to to try Robert's Roof plane Method as in the past I had just edited the walls in elevation after pulling the Roof planes back to the inner surface of the Gable End walls and then using a Solid or Slab to cap the Walls.

 

The H Shape of the walls isn't something CA expects and it was a bit more work than I thought it should be fixing some wall anomalies in Elevation and 3D views but if you build the house as a rectangle as normal , then open the Gable walls and lock the center , then add say 32" ?, that will give you a 16" projection each side.....I did that each end, starting with the foundation and working my way up , not sure if working down would be better?

 

Adding CAD center-lines through the house makes it fairly easy to use COPY>Reflect about Object to copy roof planes and Slabs to the other end of the house once you have the 1st one/side done.

 

Here is my Play Plan so you can have a look .....Gable End Walls above Roofline.plan

 

image.thumb.png.635adba23eb64a902ec7cfa367df5404.png

Mick, I had to set it aside for now, working on a Schematic budget on a large project and pricing schematic drawings is always fun!!! (NOT). I did open your plan and it does look like the direction I need. I'm thinking I might open your plan and look at the defaults, may have to reset? ceiling height is 10' (fire rated) on each floor, and a dropped "lay-in" ceiling at (-12") below that on each. Right now the priority is to get the as-built right, then do the remodel. Thankfully they only need the second floor at the moment for building permit, then I'll get back to the first floor remodel, and finally the exterior (as their budget allows).

Hopefully I can get back to it today. 1+ for the help (I'd give you 10 but CAF won't let me ;-) )

 

Larry, you're help is always appreciated!!! Hopefully I can make some progress today between juggling all the other items on today's agenda!

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BOY!!!!! is this one a challenge?!?!?!, but at least I'm not in a rush to get the Exterior Elevations (at least for now). If I can get the interior dimension correct and work on the remodel plan that should suffice. I just don't want to get so far I have to start over on the plan to get the exterior correct.

 

I'm working with your model Mick as it seems to be the closest to the actual plan. Problem one is the end walls (that run plan N&S) and extend past the walls (that run plan E&W) are 16" thick at the extensions, but the P-N&S wall in between the P-E&W are (10 7/16") Brick with air barrier, 2X6 and 1/2" DW.  I made a copy of the Solid wall you did, modified it to  (6" brick existing 10 7/16") and I was going to put a wall break in the N&S walls intersecting the E&W walls and use the Solid wall you modeled for the extensions, but I can't break the wall for some reason.  I decided to work on the roof at that point to adjust it to the correct dimensions but again for some reason was unable to move the attic walls correctly to get the look. Maybe you can take a look at what I've done so far and give some more advice? I have attached the plan.

 

Orphanos Foundation Renovations.plan

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There were a number of issues Bob , most of the walls were misaligned over the 3 floors and the roof planes were skewed but that is fixed and I made the "extensions" out of a 16" brick wall with block core. ( real world?) I made a change to your new wall type ( no osb which was in the main layer) and deleted a few walls which seemed to be "extras" on one side of the house.

 

Either end is done differently  , one end uses Roof planes ( per Robert) the Other doesn't , I used my old method of editting the Walls in Elevation and adding Solids to the top of the walls as Caps , also done in Elevation then moved in Plan View as needed, so you can see the two methods.

 

Move those walls again and you are on your own :) 

 

M.

 

 

Orphanos Foundation Renovations_MHD.plan

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7 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

 

Move those walls again and you are on your own :) 

 

M.

 

 

Orphanos Foundation Renovations_MHD.plan

Mick, I had to move the walls in order to get the as-built dimensions correct. Starting with the foundation I expected once I entered the correct as-built dim's, I could go to each subsequent floor and just do align with the floor above or below, but that option did not appear in the usual tool bar? I spent some time looking for it at any rate, I did the reference floor plan and attempted to line all of them up. Thanks for the help!!!!!

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Mick, I needed to adjust the floor to ceiling heights on each floor to 10', and as I suspected doing so screwed up those end walls after adjusting the second floor. Attempting to raise the end walls individually didn't work either.  Adjusting the crawl space and first floor to their correct as-built height worked fine, of course it is the second floor that didn't.  My assumption would've been since the end walls are just that, exterior walls, when I adjusted the crawl space and first floor, they adjusted correctly, so why didn't the second floor cause the end walls and roof line to raise?

Do I need to do a transform replicate and raise the roof the difference from it's current height above the second floor to the as-built height? Will the end walls automatically raise to the correct height? Or do they have to be adjusted manually somehow?

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Bob, I think your approach illustrates the importance of starting with accurate floor defaults and dimensions - to begin with. Trying to go back and re-adjust those things ("I needed to adjust the floor to ceiling heights on each floor to 10'") can cause a lot of headaches as you may be finding out. Number one with Chief is defaults, number two is defaults and number three is yes, defaults. Without that foundation you have no chance of getting an accurate, stable model.

 

A couple other small things that I've learned. If the floors are not close enough to 'align above/below' you won't see the icon to do so. Also trying to duplicate another's approach without knowing why they used that approach can lead to running in circles trying to figure things out.

 

Both Mick and Robert took different approaches, both work but without understanding why they work it's hard to simply duplicate their efforts. Learning the why with Chief can sometimes be more valuable than learning the how.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Evolution said:

Mick, I had to move the walls in order to get the as-built dimensions correct. Starting with the foundation I expected once I entered the correct as-built dim's, I could go to each subsequent floor and just do align with the floor above or below, but that option did not appear in the usual tool bar? I spent some time looking for it at any rate, I did the reference floor plan and attempted to line all of them up. Thanks for the help!!!!!

 

As Larry pointed out you really should do as many defaults for the Structure for the existing building before you even start Drawing or just after ( after drawing the 1st rect. box) especially in this case as it is not a standard build perse, with those extension Walls. There maybe a better way to do those ie as very small rooms, rather than solid walls , so that Chief builds the walls automatically....it may not work any better than what I did last night though? I would setup the Correct Size on Level One , if auto Foundations is one it should correct the foundation for you ( made sure Defaults are set 1st) then go up level 2 and Realign the Walls to below as needed , then on the Attic level too at each end perhaps?

 

The Wall Alignment tool only works when you are mis-aligned by less than (about) 1/2 the Walls' width, otherwise it assumes it is deliberate and doesn't give you that Option , so you will need to move the walls close to alignment (using reference layer) then you will see the Alignment Tool if it didn't snap to the reference Layer as you moved it.

 

Forgot to mention last night you had pulled the roof planes through the Brick walls on one end, (essentially breaking the inner brick layer) , they in this case must be snapped to the inner surface of the End walls, so the two NS walls can build up past them. This is also why Robert's method works as Walls WILL grow up on their own , if default wall top is on in the Structure tab, looking for a Roof Plan to Build too.

 

M.

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1 hour ago, HumbleChief said:

Bob, I think your approach illustrates the importance of starting with accurate floor defaults and dimensions - to begin with. Trying to go back and re-adjust those things ("I needed to adjust the floor to ceiling heights on each floor to 10'") can cause a lot of headaches as you may be finding out. Number one with Chief is defaults, number two is defaults and number three is yes, defaults. Without that foundation you have no chance of getting an accurate, stable model. 

Larry, I was practicing with the plan Mick did.  My plan (which is currently awaiting my trying to achieve the same thing Mick has done) is in a separate folder.  what I have, in fact set up the default floor to ceiling dims, including the crawl space, and also, edited the Roof, attic floor, second floor and first floor construction to the correct framing. 

For now, I could open that plan and do the reno of the second floor, I am hoping by practicing with Mick's plan I could learn his process so when I do start the exterior, it would be easier.

Yes you're def correct, trying to learn others process without actually understanding how they went about it is all but impossible. I hoping for now (checking with the building dept) that all they will require for this first phase is the as-built and remodel floor plan so we can get started on that work. 

as always thanks for your input!

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:16 AM, Evolution said:

Getting ready to start this remodel project for a non-profit, and have set up my plan and layout templates, but before I began modeling the as-built I was hoping to get suggestions on how to model the end exterior walls (for lack of the correct terminology I'll call them buttress walls although their not true-buttress).   I thought perhaps the best way was to model them as their own rooms, setting the ceiling height as-needed to get the projection beyond and above the other walls, correctly, and shaping the walls with the wall elevation tool.  Then draw the remaining exterior walls between these. Suggestions appreciated. I didn't know how to do a key word search on the forum for this one, but after several futile attempts found nothing. I am aware for each type of wall, I will have to create it's own wall type, but wasn't sure how to do these two end walls. I don't have a plan to post (yet).

 

AS-BUILT Elev.png

 

Your post got me interested in this type of design...so, I made a video.  Apologies for the length...but, it takes a bit to build this and explain at the same time.  Hope it helps!

 

 

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6 hours ago, SNestor said:

 

Your post got me interested in this type of design...so, I made a video.  Apologies for the length...but, it takes a bit to build this and explain at the same time.  Hope it helps!

 

 

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Steve, you make it seem so simple and I really like the way you did it.  Another one of those videos I am going to watch over and over again

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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 4:10 PM, Evolution said:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Steve, you make it seem so simple and I really like the way you did it.  Another one of those videos I am going to watch over and over again

So Larry, I've watched your video several times. I started a new plan, setting all my default ceiling heights to 120 (per my as built). Along with some other defaults relative to this build.

 

I've actually had the video start-stop playing  and working on my new plan file as I tried to follow you.  You work so fast, and I can't catch some of the little things you are doing, but I stop and go back again and again.  I had already set up the different walls for the wing wall, the end walls in my defaults. I couldn't figure out which was the best to use for the wing walls so I just used the 6" exterior brick existing I created.  Some of the little things for me that you make look so easy, is as pictured in the snips, where after you've built the roof you grab the roof plane line and drag it out to build the parapet cap / roof.  I've attempted that maneuver a hundred times (so it seems) and cannot for the life of me do what you are doing. Plus I have all these UFO's showing up and haven't been able to figure them out?

 

In playing the video back it sounds like you're saying hit the 2 key grab the line and pull it out, but if you are that isn't working for me?

 

One other thing, I'm using the 6" brick wall type (I made it 6" brick existing for my plan) I have the definition set up just like yours, but when I draw the wing walls on floor 1 and 2 they won't line up with the end of the wall in between and create a slight offset. The parapet wall worked fine, as I drew the wing wall, then deleted the wall in between, grabbed the wing wall and pulled it through like you did. I'm posting the new plan I started, you may see my mistakes quicker?  I know the foundation looks quirky at the moment, but I'll get back to that. The foundation will be 8" CMU (concrete filled) with the same brick veneer running down below grade (which is 54" below fin floor). I used copied paste in place, and also copy transform replicate exactly as you did.  I'm trying to figure this out as much as possible on my own.  I have three different practice plans. This one is the latest, and as close as I've been able to follow your video.  (EDIT) I finally figured out it was the "Q" key!!!!! not 2 ha!  Now if I can get the last part of the video right, to build the chimney correctly.    I pulled the parapet roof's back and the area stuck up like a chimney, but of course the back side didn't have brick on it. So I've got to do it like you did, only so far it hasn't worked for me! You make it look so easy and do it so fast its frustrating (LOL)!

Larry's parapet roof.png

 

 

 

 

Orphanos Foundation Renovations.plan

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Bob,

I've attached my plan that I created in the video.  You can use it as a reference...

 

A roof plane is nothing more than a polyline (in plan view).  You should be able to select an edge and drag it.  If not, then maybe you have the layer locked?  

 

The #2 key I reference in the video is used to "join" together two roof planes.  You click the ridge of one roof plane, then push #2 key, then click the ridge of the roof you want to join it with.  Same goes for valleys and hips.  

 

Federal Style Parapet Roof Design.plan

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