Let's PBR

[MarkMc]

57 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Yes I am a bit surprised , that they have not updated all the basic materials at least ( ie 3x6 standard cabinet backsplash) , since they obviously knew PBR was coming a year ago...

I'm not so sure that they knew a year ago. I can't say if I understood this correctly but I got the impression that PBR was came about something like the digital effects in Jurassic Park. In JP there were not supposed to be any digital dinosaurs but some guy down in the basement got into it and it happened. Talking with Chief folks at the show I got the impression it was something like that, also got the impression that there was one developer who was doing all the heavy lifting on it.

Even if I'm way off on that PBR went through significant changes in each of the Beta releases with the largest change happening in the final release. I don't think they could get all the materials moving in the right direction until they knew what it was doing.

In any case I have no doubt that much will be improved before X11 and that there will still be plenty to complain about too:)

[TheKitchenAbode]

5 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

In any case I have no doubt that much will be improved before X11 and that there will still be plenty to complain about too:)

 

I hope you are right, it would be awful boring if there was nothing to complain about.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

PBR started a fire in the Family Room that I am working on!

 

I was trying to get the Recessed lights over the FP to come on, and to figure out why the fire was not showing up on the FP doors when it was a Fire material. So, I went to the Library and selected Fire 5. When I sprayed it on using the Component can - POOF.  There must have been a strong back draft because in an instant fire was running up the wall and the wall was scorched.

 

You have to laugh...here's the evidence

 

 

 

OK, I think I figured this out. I pulled the FP 1/4" further into the room and we are good.  Now, back to those eyeball lights.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Cheryl_C_Crane

[TheKitchenAbode]

18 minutes ago, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

PBR started a fire in the Family Room that I am working on!

 

I was trying to get the Recessed lights over the FP to come on, and to figure out why the fire was not showing up on the FP doors when it was a Fire material. So, I went to the Library and selected Fire 5. When I sprayed it on using the Component can - POOF.  There must have been a strong back draft because in an instant fire was running up the wall and the wall was scorched.

 

You have to laugh...here's the evidence

 

 

You know you're not supposed to use gasoline to start your fire!!! Better hunt the library for a smoke/fire detector and install it right away.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

Just now, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

You know you're not supposed to use gasoline to start your fire!!! Better hunt the library for a smoke/fire detector and install it right away.

 LOL!

 

Lights set to 100 - now the Canning Jar 3 light Chandelier is off. I'll get there, and I'll remember how.

[DRAWZILLA]

1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Agree, they definitely should have been better prepared with the library updates.

 

I also wish that there was some better explanation concerning settings and their effect. For example, I use the library recessed mini can most of the time. The default intensity setting is 1,637.807129 lumens, how on earth did they decide on 6 decimal places. Also, where can one purchase a standard residential spot type light bulb that puts out this lumen level. A standard 4-6 watt LED spot bulb outputs no more than about 550 lumen, a good old MR16 could do maybe 900 lumens.

 

The 6" down light has a default of 1,200 lumens, not sure how a 6" puts out less light than a 4". The 6" has a cut off angle of 175 degrees, not sure I have ever encountered a residential spot light bulb with that great of a spread, especially if it is up inside the can.

 

The default sun intensity is 100,000 lux, but if you watch that video a setting around 26,000 is suggested. Personally, at 100,000 it's like the flash of light from a nuclear blast illuminating your home. I understand that some users may want to crank it way up, but why is this the default?

 

Light intensity was changed from watts to lumens, I heard that it was done as Lumens are more relevant. Agree that with LED's watts are obsolete. But these lumen defaults don't seem to be relevant to anything I can associate with.

light intensity (lumens)  does matter for energy calculations and if you might export to rescheck.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Just now, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

 LOL!

 

Lights set to 100 - now the Canning Jar 3 light Chandelier is off. I'll get there, and I'll remember how.

 

This might help on the lighting. What I'm doing is to toggle off the sun and setting my lights under this condition. I use 550 lumens for my main recessed spots. My other lights are set to balance with these, they are usually lower, especially point lights. In the PBR DBX I set the Brightness to max and reduce the camera exposure as much as possible. If things are still off I back off on the brightness and increase the camera exposure. Don't worry if it is not perfect, you are just looking to attain a reasonable balance. Once done you can the apply the sun, I start at about 1000 lux and then shift it up or down to get the proper effect. Too strong and it will wipe out your interior lighting effect.

[TheKitchenAbode]

2 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said:

light intensity (lumens)  does matter for energy calculations and if you might export to rescheck.

 

Absolutely, I was just questioning CA's default Lumen settings and what if anything was the basis for those particular levels. Just think those defaults are way to high for most residential applications, I use 550 Lumens as my standard for a 4-6 watt LED spot. Most LED under cabinet strips or pucks are significantly lower.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

8 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

This might help on the lighting. What I'm doing is to toggle off the sun and setting my lights under this condition. I use 550 lumens for my main recessed spots. My other lights are set to balance with these, they are usually lower, especially point lights. In the PBR DBX I set the Brightness to max and reduce the camera exposure as much as possible. If things are still off I back off on the brightness and increase the camera exposure. Don't worry if it is not perfect, you are just looking to attain a reasonable balance. Once done you can the apply the sun, I start at about 1000 lux and then shift it up or down to get the proper effect. Too strong and it will wipe out your interior lighting effect.

This is invaluable! Thanks for shedding light on the nuances. You're sharing is saving me time! TY

[TheKitchenAbode]

1 minute ago, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

This is invaluable! Thanks for shedding light on the nuances. You're sharing is saving me time! TY

 

Glad you are finding some value in all of this.

 

Those kitchen ones I posted earlier today have the sun set at 1,000 Lux. The ceiling cans are at 550 lumens, the pendant point lights are 100 lumens and the under cabinet spots are 30 lumens.

 

BPR DBX

Camera Exposure - 0.18

Hue - 0

Saturation - 60%

Brightness - 95%

 

I don't know how those looked on your screen, but on mine they looked very good.

 

Here's another one, just playing around a bit.

 

On this one I did not use the Improve Lighting Quality in the PBR DBX. You can toggle it on or off to see if you it helps the scene or not. Tends to work best if your ceilings are coming out too dark.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

Excellent! 

 

I just figured out that you must set the number of lights to <8 for each Camera. Silly me thought that I could just set up a Template and rock on - not so.

 

Might you know if the PBR is on the CPU or the Video Card?

 

I'm really looking forward to mastering PBR! And, I'm sorta bummed that I can't get a RT like I am used to seeing. Here's another room in the same home where there is a H U G E variance in the floor color. Natural Maple is correct.

[TheKitchenAbode]

1 minute ago, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

Excellent! 

 

I just figured out that you must set the number of lights to <8 for each Camera. Silly me thought that I could just set up a Template and rock on - not so.

 

Might you know if the PBR is on the CPU or the Video Card?

 

I'm really looking forward to mastering PBR! And, I'm sorta bummed that I can't get a RT like I am used to seeing. Here's another room in the same home where there is a H U G E variance in the floor color. Natural Maple is correct.

 

Yes the active lights are specific to each camera so it's import to remember this or set it in the default settings so it's applied automatically every time you place a camera.

 

It's using both the CPU and the GPU. I just went through this and had to upgrade my video card as my old one was maxing out. The more active lights the more work the GPU has to do.

 

The variance in the floor is due to the lights or lack of lights, that looks like a fairly large area and it probably needs more lights. If you don't want actual light fixtures then place some 3D point lights around the room. Set their height to be about half way between the floor and ceiling. It's best to use a number of them at very low lumens, say around 5 lumens, if they are too bright they will show up as odd bright spots on polished or reflective materials.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

OK, I'll go back and ck defaults. I have a lot of template files, maybe I didn't change all of them, and started this adventure on 1 that wasn't corrected. There's a lot of tweaking of templates between rev.'s. Thanks for affirming that we can do a global setting.

 

I was following your quest for hardware improvement - now I understand that it's pulling from both.

 

PBR is worth every Kitchen Designer's time investment just for those minor adjustments that we have to make on every plan. 

 

I so greatly appreciate the guidance on this new tool! Thanks!

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Forgot to mention one thing should you place those 3D lights into your scene. Turn shadows off, this way they will not create all kinds of weird shadows in your scene. The other advantage is that they will soften the shadows of those light fixtures that have shadows turned on.

 

If your recessed lights have to strong of a light effect on the wall you can increase the drop rate to soften them. The ones in my kitchen samples have a drop rate of 20 and a cut-off angle of 140 degrees.

[Cheryl_C_Crane]

Wow, you are full of PBR wisdom! I have never adjusted the drop rate and cut-off angle - ever. I think that I'll print this thread and Highlight all these pearls. I freq. have used counterbalancing point lighting to wash areas, but not the cut-off or drop rate.

 

We need a Global Setting for Lighting now. Maybe we wiil move to Kelvin instead of guessing the color.

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

use the library recessed mini can most of the time. The default intensity setting is 1,637.807129 lumens, how on earth did they decide on 6 decimal places

 

There is something wrong with your default 4" mini-can  as mine is 1200 lumens same as the 6" , seems they are ALL defaulted to 1200 which is still 12x too much . Perhaps reset you Electrical defaults and Choose the one in the Library again ? or one you have re-copied to your User Library. 

 

I also found that old recessed cans I had in my User Library don't seem to work correctly , especially if placed on a Vaulted Ceiling.

 

So you are Using Point lights again ? ie the reverse of Ray Tracing in X9 ?

 

Not sure where the 175° spread came from either it's more like 95° ITRW

 

M.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

This is invaluable! Thanks for shedding light on the nuances. You're sharing is saving me time! TY

 

not sure if you saw post #43 Cheryl ? on page 2 , that is how I have my Templates set up now.... With the PBR Camera as the Default , so I don't need to switch from Standard.

 

https://chieftalk.chiefarchitect.com/topic/16912-lets-pbr/?do=findComment&comment=142683

 

[mattyt12]

1 hour ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

 

Great job Graham, shame that the glass doesn't translate well with PBR. Delete the glass objects and add an arised edge to the benchtop the shot then becomes very believable.

 

Thanks for the tips too.

[Kbird1]

On 3/4/2018 at 0:11 PM, TheKitchenAbode said:

 This looks like the one I'll purchase. $489.00 

 

EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 SC Gaming ACX 6GB (06G-P4-6163-KR)
1607 Mhz Base/ 1835 MHz Boost, 8008 Mhz Memory
PCI-E 3.0 16x, DVI-D, HDMI 2.0, 3x DP

 

They have 4 stores within a 20 minute drive and 8 units on the shelf. One store has an open box one with 10% off, that would almost cover the tax.

 

 

Good timing Graham , I read this morning EVGA and other Manufacturers put their Cards like the 1080 up another $50US , 1080ti Hybrid was $869 and is now $909US.

 

Unfortunately DDR4 has almost doubled in Price in the last year too.... as I think 16GB is about the lower limit nowadays, happy my last build was two years ago cos I thought prices were crazy then, today is a whole other story.

 

M.

 

[Renerabbitt]

1 hour ago, mattyt12 said:

Great job Graham, shame that the glass doesn't translate well with PBR. Delete the glass objects and add an arised edge to the benchtop the shot then becomes very believable.

 

Thanks for the tips too.

+1-what he said

Fantastic Work Graham, truly

[Renerabbitt]

you could set the glass to matte neon green(diffused) and then do a raytrace clipped to the glass with the counter-tops neon green so you could photoshoppy swappy.

and yes definitely eased edge on the counter-tops...I always default my cabs with eased edge molding.

[TheKitchenAbode]

14 hours ago, Cheryl_C_Crane said:

Wow, you are full of PBR wisdom! I have never adjusted the drop rate and cut-off angle - ever. I think that I'll print this thread and Highlight all these pearls. I freq. have used counterbalancing point lighting to wash areas, but not the cut-off or drop rate.

 

We need a Global Setting for Lighting now. Maybe we wiil move to Kelvin instead of guessing the color.

 

Thanks Cheryl but I'm not sure about the wisdom. I'm just relaying what I'm finding that seems to be working for me, I'm certain there are many other approaches yet to be discovered.

 

On those spot lights the cut-off angle and the drop rate have a huge impact, definitely worth experimenting with.

 

I've also wondered about whether or not CA should use the Kelvin standard. If you need it just google RGB versus Kelvin and you will find conversion charts that will give you the common RGB values for many types of light sources/conditions.

[TheKitchenAbode]

14 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

There is something wrong with your default 4" mini-can  as mine is 1200 lumens same as the 6" , seems they are ALL defaulted to 1200 which is still 12x too much . Perhaps reset you Electrical defaults and Choose the one in the Library again ? or one you have re-copied to your User Library. 

 

I also found that old recessed cans I had in my User Library don't seem to work correctly , especially if placed on a Vaulted Ceiling.

 

So you are Using Point lights again ? ie the reverse of Ray Tracing in X9 ?

 

Not sure where the 175° spread came from either it's more like 95° ITRW

 

M.

 

The one I quoted is from the Core Library, not my user library. Had update all the libraries about 2 weeks ago, will run another update to see if it is now different.

 

Good catch on the point lights, in PBR'ing it does not seem to matter as to which light type you use in respect to rendering time. When Ray Tracing point lights really slowed things down which is why I devised some replacement spot light arrays.

 

Yes, they should adjust these light specifications to be more relevant to real life. The way they are now, one has to do this every time and then save the light to our user library. Clutters up the user library and I believe it causes problems as many users assume the lights have been preconfigured for the best result, which never actually seems to be the case.

[TheKitchenAbode]

13 hours ago, mattyt12 said:

Great job Graham, shame that the glass doesn't translate well with PBR. Delete the glass objects and add an arised edge to the benchtop the shot then becomes very believable.

 

Thanks for the tips too.

 

Thanks matty12. Yes glass is a real problem, hopefully CA will work on this. Will fix the counter top edge, not only does it need an edge profile but it needs to be extended a bit to overhang the cabinet faces.

 

Reflections are still an issue, the counter tops are set to maximum reflection and yet they appear matt.

[TheKitchenAbode]

11 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

+1-what he said

Fantastic Work Graham, truly

 

Thanks Rene, really appreciate your judgement. Your white subway tile played a big role in this, thanks for sharing. 

 

11 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

you could set the glass to matte neon green(diffused) and then do a raytrace clipped to the glass with the counter-tops neon green so you could photoshoppy swappy.

and yes definitely eased edge on the counter-tops...I always default my cabs with eased edge molding.

 

Right now I'm just trying to see what PBR can do on it's own. The only Photoshopping if any is a bit of sharpening and maybe some colour/saturation tweaks. CA should really consider adding just a few addition pic adjustment tools such as shadows/highlights, sharpen and color balance.