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Need help placing outdoor outlets on surfaces other than exterior structural walls.  I gather that a similar  issue has been addressed with regard to placing indoor outlets on cabinets (e.g., kitchen islands, etc.), but I do not think this is true with regard to placing waterproof GFCI outlets outdoors (e.g., on retainer walls, terrain walls, in or around outdoor kitchen areas, pergolas, etc.). However, this arises as an issue in many of my outdoor designs.   Can anyone please help me out here?.  Thanks very much in advance...

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put an invisible wall wherever you want the gfci and then put the recepticle of choice on it

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This is just the electrician in me coming out.  The correct term is "Weather Resistant" not waterproof or weather proof. 

Weather Proof is an older term that was abandoned in the NEC about six years ago.

CA should change the symbol to WR instead of WP.

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1 hour ago, Joe_Carrick said:

Here's a modified GFCI WR symbol.  I also rotated it so it mounts  horizontal instead of vertical.

 

GFCI WR.calibz

Thanks Joe, I save that one.

 

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Greg,

 

I just noticed that if you place a Duplex outlet (Chief's Drop Down) on an exterior Wall Chief labels it "WP". 

 

Shouldn't that always be "GFCI WR" ?

Would it ever be correct for an exterior outlet to not be GFCI protected?

 

IAE, with the new symbol I posted there's automatically a correct 2D Block that can be assigned to Chief's symbol.

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21 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

I just noticed that if you place a Duplex outlet (Chief's Drop Down) on an exterior Wall Chief labels it "WP". 

 

Shouldn't that always be "GFCI WR" ?

Would it ever be correct for an exterior outlet to not be GFCI protected?

 

 

Being GFCI protected and being an actual GFCI outlet are 2 different things and IMO should not be labeled the same.  I could be wrong for some areas, but I believe the GFCI label should only be placed at the location of the actual GFCI device.  If this wasn't the case, we would have all sorts of GFCI labels all over the plan anywhere and everywhere an item was on a GFCI protected circuit with no way of knowing where we actually want the device itself. 

 

Plus, the next logical step would be to carry that same thought process through to arc fault protected circuits which around here is essentially every circuit in the house now except the garage.  That's a lot of GFCI and AFCI labels cluttering the plan and honestly just confusing matters.  This is one of those areas where I feel its the electricians job to make sure circuits are properly protected.  All I want to occasionally do is specify where I might want an actual GFCI or AFCI device.  At most I think we could label the circuit itself as a GFCI/AFCI protected circuit but not each and every device on that circuit. 

 

WR outlets on the other hand are typically a different story.  Those COULD all stand to be labeled because its not a circuitry thing, its an object specific thing.  Its the device itself that needs to be weather resistant, not the circuit.

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Michael,

 

On the plans it is my opinion that all outlets should be properly labeled where protection is required.  OTOH, it's up to the Electrician to decide how to provide that protection.  Then, when installed, each protected outlet should have a physical label so indicating.

 

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34 minutes ago, Joe_Carrick said:

On the plans it is my opinion that all outlets should be properly labeled where protection is required. 

 

Ya, you are probably right and I think this is a pretty common viewpoint.  It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.  If you look at most electrical legends the GFCI nomenclature refers to a GFCI receptacle and not simply GFCI protection.  Of course most people dealing with the plans understand this and move on.  Then again...there are those times where GFCI receptacles get installed everywhere and I believe some localities actually require this.  

 

At any rate, answer me this...do you also include an AFCI notation at all receptacles and fixtures where AFCI protection is required?  I assume you don't and I don't blame you, but why don't you?  It seems like the same basic logic to me.  

 

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41 minutes ago, Joe_Carrick said:

Then, when installed, each protected outlet should have a physical label so indicating.

 

In my experience we are only required to do this around here when we are using a GFCI device to protect an ungrounded receptacle location that has been replaced with a grounded type receptacle .  There may be other situations requiring this as well but as far as I can recall this is the only one that has ever come up for us.  

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On 11/22/2017 at 2:45 PM, B4UBLD said:

Need help placing outdoor outlets on surfaces other than exterior structural walls.  I gather that a similar  issue has been addressed with regard to placing indoor outlets on cabinets (e.g., kitchen islands, etc.), but I do not think this is true with regard to placing waterproof GFCI outlets outdoors (e.g., on retainer walls, terrain walls, in or around outdoor kitchen areas, pergolas, etc.). However, this arises as an issue in many of my outdoor designs.   Can anyone please help me out here?.  Thanks very much in advance...

If you would be interest in a one on one online meeting (free of course), I will show you how to place anything like an outlet, fixture, etc. on anything you want. Just call me 832-754-6160 or email me at tblair55@sbcglobal.net. Happy Thanksgiving!

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10 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

At any rate, answer me this...do you also include an AFCI notation at all receptacles and fixtures where AFCI protection is required?  I assume you don't and I don't blame you, but why don't you?  It seems like the same basic logic to me.  

 

No, because this is done with an AFCI breaker in the panel for those circuits.  I label the circuit home runs AFCI where needed and a note in the Electrical Legend.

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19 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

Greg,

 

I just noticed that if you place a Duplex outlet (Chief's Drop Down) on an exterior Wall Chief labels it "WP". 

 

Shouldn't that always be "GFCI WR" ?

Would it ever be correct for an exterior outlet to not be GFCI protected?

 

IAE, with the new symbol I posted there's automatically a correct 2D Block that can be assigned to Chief's symbol.

There are a couple of exceptions in the National Electric Code.  All outside outlets must be GFCI protected except: when on a deck, more than 8 ft above ground with no access, like stairs, to the ground.  Outlets in the overhang more than 8ft above ground, dedicated to the purpose of holiday decorations.  Of course all of this can change with local codes and "the Authority Having Jurisdiction" which means the local electrical inspector.

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around here every GFCI must be labeled but not AFCI. Every exterior outlet must also be GFCI and WP.

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14 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

At any rate, answer me this...do you also include an AFCI notation at all receptacles and fixtures where AFCI protection is required?  I assume you don't and I don't blame you, but why don't you?  It seems like the same basic logic to me.  

 

3 hours ago, Joe_Carrick said:

No, because this is done with an AFCI breaker in the panel for those circuits.  I label the circuit home runs AFCI where needed and a note in the Electrical Legend.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone change their practices necessarily.  I'm sure much of what you guys have to draw up is based on local requirements.  I'm just trying to figure out the logic here and perhaps affect the discussion in general.

 

  • GFCI protection can also be done with a breaker just like AFCI protection can.  In those cases would you still label every outlet on the plan that is GFCI protected?  If so, why would you not do the same for the AFCI protection?
  • AFCI protection can be done with a device (receptacle) just like GFCI protection can.  What about these situations?  Do you label the home run, do you label the single device, or do you label every protected device like you do with GFCI receptacles?

I guess I still can't understand why the 2 are so commonly treated so differently.  For all intents and purposes they both work much in the same way with regard to circuit protection but they are handled completely differently with regard to plan notations.  

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On 11/22/2017 at 11:45 AM, B4UBLD said:

Need help placing outdoor outlets on surfaces other than exterior structural walls.  I gather that a similar  issue has been addressed with regard to placing indoor outlets on cabinets (e.g., kitchen islands, etc.), but I do not think this is true with regard to placing waterproof GFCI outlets outdoors (e.g., on retainer walls, terrain walls, in or around outdoor kitchen areas, pergolas, etc.). However, this arises as an issue in many of my outdoor designs.   Can anyone please help me out here?.  Thanks very much in advance...

 

Sorry for derailing your thread.  To answer your question...

 

There are quite a few ways to do this.  Joe and Ray both gave good solutions and you could take up Tommy on his offer but here are a few more solutions and tips:

  • If you use an invisible wall I think you'll have to place the outlet before changing the wall to invisible and I would probably suggest that you make that wall a No Room Definition wall as well. 
  • You can place a small cabinet onto a unique layer, mount the outlet to the cabinet, and simply turn that cabinet layer off
  • You can place an outlet onto a wall, select that outlet, click on the Open Symbol tool (little chair icon), click on the Options tab, and change it to Floor Mounted.  You can then place it wherever you want.  Might be a good idea to add this to your library for future use as well.  NOTE:  You may or may not want to adjust origin offsets and/or the CAD block but that's kind of a different subject. 

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