Gawdzira Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 NEC code 2023 calls for island outlet changes. No more outlets below the countertop level! https://alisonsolar.com/new-electric-codes/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Big+changes+to+the+new+2023+National+Electric+Codes!&utm_campaign=Blog+2023&vgo_ee=gTcUW1ZBvljhcFYFB%2F22VSzs7CfPgE8fE7CgDS1pV0U%3D 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 12:09 AM, Gawdzira said: NEC code 2023 calls for island outlet changes. No more outlets below the countertop level! Expand Keeping in mind that they no longer require an outlet at all which is a BIG deal for post-tension and/or radiant floor remodels 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesVolz Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 12:09 AM, Gawdzira said: No more outlets below the countertop level! Expand Crazy... Thanks Alan! So kids will tripping over longer extension cords with mixers, blenders, etc. raining down on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzira Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 1:36 AM, Renerabbitt said: Keeping in mind that they no longer require an outlet at all which is a BIG deal for post-tension and/or radiant floor remodels Expand I am not reading it that way. This is not an either/or. It is a yes but choose 1,2 or 3 and 3 still needs a power line run for future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 2:10 AM, CharlesVolz said: Crazy... Thanks Alan! So kids will tripping over longer extension cords with mixers, blenders, etc. raining down on them. Expand My thoughts exactly. Thank you Alan...Also, this is dumb. They're just opening up the door to a worse problem OR the homeowner or someone else is just going to come along after the main project is done and install an outlet on the side of the cabinet just like we've always done...or install an outlet inside the cabinet and use an aftermarket product of some sort to extend it out from there in an even less appropriate fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzira Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 I think the intention is to seek more top surface/pop up outlets to be installed instead of the outlets on the end of the peninsula or island. But, the way this is written is setting up a lack of island and peninsula outlets. I can agree that the face of the cabinet end or face of the cabinet (like in a pilaster type design placement) is not ideal for where the cord becomes an obstacle is not ideal but eliminating them is certainly creating a situation where we might see an extension cord run to power up a mixer or some other small appliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTransue Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 For jurisdictions that have adopted the International Residential Code (IRC) — at least up through the ‘21 edition — the IRC still requires any countertop over 12” in width to have at least one receptacle, which means that an island is required to have at least one. Any requirement for additional receptacles is established by the typical determinations (24” from an edge/corner, etc). Receptacle type, capacity, and “placement” within the IRC requirement must adhere to the NEC rules, except that the IRC also disallows a receptacle to be underneath any countertop protrusion over 6”, which screws up my typical preference for making two of then readily available yet still out of sight by tucking them just under the countertop on the pilasters supporting the island’s dining ledge. No telling what will be in the ‘24 edition of the IRC, but that’s the way it is for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renerabbitt Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, Gawdzira said: I am not reading it that way. This is not an either/or. It is a yes but choose 1,2 or 3 and 3 still needs a power line run for future. Expand I think their has been a revision since I first researched it, there was no clause for ITTT. J-box it is.wonder if this will be like some of the other radical changes of past when mfr’s couldn’t get their product to meet listings in time for the code interpretations to take effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 5:15 AM, Renerabbitt said: wonder if this will be like some of the other radical changes of past when mfr’s couldn’t get their product to meet listings in time for the code interpretations to take effect Expand Or like some of the others where many jurisdictions just amend it right out. On 3/22/2023 at 4:56 AM, KTransue said: For jurisdictions that have adopted the International Residential Code (IRC) — at least up through the ‘21 edition — the IRC still requires any countertop over 12” in width to have at least one receptacle Expand I think it will be particularly problematic for the many jurisdictions where electrical requirements are only inspected/enforced by the electrical inspector and where the electrical inspectors are only referencing the NEC. Anyway, I'm normally pretty easy going and just adjust to these changes. This one really kinda sucks though. One of the greatest things about islands is having a large, open, and completely smooth working surface. introducing a popup outlet really has a negative affect on all but the largest of islands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACADuser Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 So when you spill the soup down the receptacle, who is going to clean it out? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 2:20 PM, ACADuser said: So when you spill the soup down the receptacle, who is going to clean it out? Expand Pop-up receptacles, not flat surface mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACADuser Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 So are they soup resistant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Many are waterproof. Here's a link to pictures of a lot of options. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=pop+up+receptacles+countertop&qpvt=pop+up+receptacles+countertop&form=IQFRML&first=1 BTW, some of these outlets are quite expensive. I've seen some that are as much or more than $500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACADuser Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I've never physically seen one, only pictures. My point is how water resistant are they. Spilling liquids like soup into the cracks & crevices will create a cleaning nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 6:16 PM, ACADuser said: My point is how water resistant are they. Spilling liquids like soup into the cracks & crevices will create a cleaning nightmare. Expand They are sealed units. When closed (pushed down) nothing gets in. That's even better than Garbage Disposal Switches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACADuser Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Are they sealed when in the up position? Crock-pot on the counter & the ladle gets out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzira Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 They do not seal when up. At least with the Mocket ones. That is the one I have installed. The thing to check when you spec these is how deep they are so you need to reserve that space. https://www.mockett.com/pcs77-23g.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwzuqgBhAcEiwAdj5dRoLNR1gAN3ER8y7cVf0nyy0x7JSBFoYeuYhbqxXcEkm2L2L8w2phKxoCMB4QAvD_BwE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 6:25 PM, ACADuser said: Are they sealed when in the up position? Crock-pot on the counter & the ladle gets out of control. Expand Alan, It seems you're just looking for trouble. In most cases the outlet would be placed near the center of the island some distance from the "out of control ladle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_Carrick Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 6:45 PM, Gawdzira said: The thing to check when you spec these is how deep they are so you need to reserve that space. Expand Yep, Some require a 5" diameter x 8" deep space. That could mean either no drawer or a short drawer so the unit could be behind the drawer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTransue Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 Countertop obstacles, aesthetics, and convenience aside, let's put this in perspective, just for grins ... The driving motivation for this code change was the CPSC's concern for safety in the kitchen (just the kitchen, mind you ... As it turns out, there are plenty of accessible receptacles in other parts of the home) ... Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data shows that between 1991 and 2020, an estimated 9,700 people, many of them children, were treated in United States emergency rooms for burns and other injuries after pulling on or running into power cords plugged into outlets installed below the island /peninsula work surfaces. So, of the 137,400,000 housing units in the United States, 9,700 people -- "many of them children" (so we can assume that it wasn't "most of them" -- hurt themselves by misusing common electrical receptacles. Assuming half of that number were children (4850), that's .004% -- or four thousandths of one percent -- had problems keeping their children away from the kitchen island electrical outlets. "Stop it, Junior! Get away from the island and go stick that in the outlet by the table!" Yeah, that seems like a good reason to inconvenience the entire rest of the country ... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACADuser Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 On 3/22/2023 at 6:55 PM, Joe_Carrick said: Alan, It seems you're just looking for trouble. In most cases the outlet would be placed near the center of the island some distance from the "out of control ladle". Expand Yes I was stirring the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzira Posted March 22, 2023 Author Share Posted March 22, 2023 As an aside, the people who bought the house with the Mockett pop up in the island, love this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_Winsor Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 That's only because they haven't spilled the soup yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_Sweeney Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Kevin......"So, of the 137,400,000 housing units in the United States, 9,700 people -- "many of them children" (so we can assume that it wasn't "most of them" -- hurt themselves by misusing common electrical receptacles. Assuming half of that number were children (4850), that's .004% -- or four thousandths of one percent " You forgot to divide that ".004%" over a 30 year period! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan_Son Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 On 3/23/2023 at 12:46 PM, Larry_Sweeney said: You forgot to divide that ".004%" over a 30 year period! Expand That's 323 people a year or roughly 1 out of a million people. If that seems unreasonable to you that maybe you're a heartless monster. I do wonder however how many of those were the same people just not learning. "Many of them children" for the first few years and then them was adults for the rest of them years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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