X12 v X13 on mac pc

[AdeleMinton]

Started using x13 in the June Beta. Although I knew the graphics card wasn't perfect I thought I could work with it and play with materials etc to get better PB render results. 

I was adamant I wanted to upgrade as I liked all the new features that came with X13.

5 months in I'm that disappointed (embarrassed) every-time I give a client a plan, I've made the decision to roll back to X12.

For anyone on a mac thinking of upgrading and require renders, don't do it.  Here is a comparison image of the two. 

 

I feel CA have made a huge mistake not being full open about how problematic x13 is especially on a mac. From constant program shut downs, errors and lack of graphic compatibility.   If I was new to trying out the software in X13 I would be running a mile. 

 

A version for the mac utilising the x12 rendering with the updated features of x13 should have been released. I wonder how many mac users there are that have also paid the upgrade. (personally paid for 2 with an additional license. )

 

Just my 2 pence worth.   

[rgardner]

I am actually surprised that x12 works very well on your system to be honest.  Memory 8GN - 1TB Fusion Drive - Graphics Radeon Pro 555X with 2GB of GDDR5 memory  This part is pretty underpowered for any 3d software.  And I am using an older system myself but have not had the issue with renderings after Adjusting to the new rendering engine.  Flat-out regardless of your system the new rendering engine works differently so the settings that you used for x12 will not work in x13 to the same degree you will need to adjust them.

[Kbird1]

7 hours ago, AdeleMinton said:

For anyone on a mac thinking of upgrading and require renders, don't do it. 

 

Unfortunately it is not just a MAC issue , many of us are seeing Issues in X13 , and I have several Clients that have also gone back to X12 as even the Standard Renders are Better.

 

 

Mick

[Chrisb222]

9 hours ago, AdeleMinton said:

Started using x13 in the June Beta. Although I knew the graphics card wasn't perfect I thought I could work with it and play with materials etc to get better PB render results. 

I was adamant I wanted to upgrade as I liked all the new features that came with X13.

5 months in I'm that disappointed (embarrassed) every-time I give a client a plan, I've made the decision to roll back to X12.

For anyone on a mac thinking of upgrading and require renders, don't do it.  Here is a comparison image of the two. 

 

I feel CA have made a huge mistake not being full open about how problematic x13 is especially on a mac. From constant program shut downs, errors and lack of graphic compatibility.   If I was new to trying out the software in X13 I would be running a mile. 

 

A version for the mac utilising the x12 rendering with the updated features of x13 should have been released. I wonder how many mac users there are that have also paid the upgrade. (personally paid for 2 with an additional license. )

 

Just my 2 pence worth.   

 

Thanks for the info. My SSA is always current but I haven't even downloaded x13 because of posts like this. I'm struggling with how to transition to x13... either move to PC [GAG] or buy an M1 Mac and render on twinmotion or blender.

 

Ugh.

[AdeleMinton]

2 hours ago, Chrisb222 said:

 

Thanks for the info. My SSA is always current but I haven't even downloaded x13 because of posts like this. I'm struggling with how to transition to x13... either move to PC [GAG] or buy an M1 Mac and render on twinmotion or blender.

 

Ugh.

I thought I could transition after reading some post that suggested it was light and material settings.   I would never go back to a windows pc personally.
I’ve spent hours upon hours learning twinmotion and blender but I really don’t have the time to switch and render in another software just to produce a kitchen or bathroom render. (Twinmotion is the easier I feel out of the two).
When ultimately I purchased and learnt CA 3 years ago for the ease of a pretty much instant render. 

 

A huge issue for me now is once I moved to x13 I spent over 100 hours updating all of my library items.  X12 doesn’t allow you to import x13 library. So I’m pretty much starting again. I also have about 20 plans drawn in x13 that can’t roll back to x12. 

hope this helps in your decision, for me x13 has caused me nothing but stress

[Kbird1]

6 minutes ago, AdeleMinton said:

X12 doesn’t allow you to import x13 library

 

No...... but if you have a backup of the old X12 Data Folder tucked away somewhere you may have a copy of the Old x12 User Library, toolbars etc available assuming you deleted the old X12 program? if it was still there and you re-installed X12 it may have been overwritten. 

 

You can see in Preferences>General>Folders where you would normally find the User Library , it's normally in the DATA Folder unless you moved it.

 

This is on my pc but you get the Idea I hope.....

 

 

 

 

 

[AdeleMinton]

6 hours ago, rgardner said:

I am actually surprised that x12 works very well on your system to be honest.  Memory 8GN - 1TB Fusion Drive - Graphics Radeon Pro 555X with 2GB of GDDR5 memory  This part is pretty underpowered for any 3d software.  And I am using an older system myself but have not had the issue with renderings after Adjusting to the new rendering engine.  Flat-out regardless of your system the new rendering engine works differently so the settings that you used for x12 will not work in x13 to the same degree you will need to adjust them.

So do you use a Mac or windows? 
Believe me I have played with every setting in the software and hours updating all of my materials /lights to achieve better results. I’m sure support are sick of me by now. They have had plans and can only suggest I turn off the majority of settings. 
 

[AdeleMinton]

12 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

No...... but if you have a backup of the old X12 Data Folder tucked away somewhere you may have a copy of the Old x12 User Library, toolbars etc available assuming you deleted the old X12 program? if it was still there and you re-installed X12 it may have been overwritten. 

 

You can see in Preferences>General>Folders where you would normally find the User Library , it's normally in the DATA Folder unless you moved it.

 

This is on my pc but you get the Idea I hope.....

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you I do have a copy of my old library. Problem is I went through my whole library in x13 updating pretty much every item. Down to labels/ heights / materials/ properties. Creating blocks of frequently used models /items.   
Sad I have to start again knowing how many days/weeks I worked through the night creating.  

[Chrisb222]

3 hours ago, AdeleMinton said:

I thought I could transition after reading some post that suggested it was light and material settings.   I would never go back to a windows pc personally.
I’ve spent hours upon hours learning twinmotion and blender but I really don’t have the time to switch and render in another software just to produce a kitchen or bathroom render. (Twinmotion is the easier I feel out of the two).
When ultimately I purchased and learnt CA 3 years ago for the ease of a pretty much instant render. 

 

A huge issue for me now is once I moved to x13 I spent over 100 hours updating all of my library items.  X12 doesn’t allow you to import x13 library. So I’m pretty much starting again. I also have about 20 plans drawn in x13 that can’t roll back to x12. 

hope this helps in your decision, for me x13 has caused me nothing but stress

 

Thanks. Believe me I don't want to leave the MacOS platform. I've used Macs since the B&W Macintosh SE (~1988) and although I have a PC laptop and can use the system I loathe the idea of using Windows full time. I have only dabbled in TM and Blender (have both installed) but MacOS + third party render may be the lesser unpleasant of the two paths forward. Sure, having great renders with X13 on the Mac would be great but that doesn't seem realistic right now, and living without the upgrades of X13, some of which I asked for, is driving me nuts!

 

[basilbabaa]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:53 PM, Chrisb222 said:

and living without the upgrades of X13, some of which I asked for, is driving me nuts!

 

 

I have purposely not looked at the list of X13 upgrades, so fortunatly I don't know what I am missing.  However, I am paid up with my SSA and so am somewhat irritated that I cannot upgrade to X13 since it would be an unacceptable downgrade in rendering quality.  I hope they choose to fix this.

 

 

[MarkSirianni]

I'm in the same boat...  I always move to the newest version of CA as soon as it's available.  X13 has been a disaster for me on Mac.  I wish I would have known and just stayed on X12.  I migrated 5 projects and continued working only to find out I couldn't send renders to the layout as I've done for 7 years.  The images were black blocks!  My only work around to complete the projects for CDs was to send to layout as an image.  Any changes to the plan requires updating the images in the layout one at a time!  Ugh.  

 

By the way, I bought a new top of the line, maxed out specs, M1 mac mini.  I hoped this would "fix" the issue but... it went back in the box for return within 3 hours.  Sad.  I currently run 16" MBP 2.3 GHz 8-core Intel Core i9, 16 GB 2667 MHz DDR4, AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 4 GB with 1 TB disk.  

 

I'm now back to X12 with all new projects and will keep it that way until there is some sort of fix and these forums report flawless operation.  WINDOWS IS NOT AN OPTION.

[basilbabaa]

As seen from earlier in this post, I have remained on X12 because of struggling with trying to learn how to optimize render quality in X13 with the changes CA has made from the rendering engine of X12.  I have just ordered a new Mac Studio and would like to upgrade to X14 when possible, but first would like to understand it in X13.

 

@Renerabbitt in our previous conversation thread from today with @rgardner, you suggested I drop an example plan for rendering in a new thread for you and any other willing and knowledgeable participants to play to possibly show me as to how and what settings I need to adjust in X13 in order to achieve the crispness and clarity for which I am wanting.

 

Since it appears I am unable to post a 148mb file here so, here is a link to a file on my MS OneDrive containing a zip file of the CA Breckinridge Demo Plan where I have edited it and added a kitchen camera called Basil's Learning Camera. I've then saved it out in both X12 and X13 each from which I have included a rendered .png using identical physically based render settings and the same light set.  But it is confusing to me because in X13 some of the lights do not appear on even though they are set to on in the light set, so I'm not sure what to do there.

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjHCE41XxAiZgZpBgXYYVGx7UrMikw?e=e0aKPT

 

If there is a more acceptable way to post this other than from my OneDrive, please forgive me, I'm happy to do it another way if need be.

 

As I have stated, I prefer the sharpness and reflectivity of the granite and tile of the X12 render over that of X13.  However I do prefer how X13 handles some but not all of the metals better.  In other posts in which I have been involved, it has been explained to me that I simply need to learn how to adjust my settings in X13, and I can get vivid vibrant photo realistic look, possibly even better then X12.

 

@Renerabbitt you also suggested that you offer training.  I am certainly open to take advantage of that, if I am able to see an X13 render from this X13 plan file with the look I am able to obtain from X12.  I guess I simply need the appropriate guidance and training on this.  

 

Many Kind Thanks in advance.

[Renerabbitt]

1 hour ago, basilbabaa said:

you also suggested that you offer training.  I am certainly open to take advantage of that, if I am able to see an X13 render from this X13 plan file with the look I am able to obtain from X12.  I guess I simply need the appropriate guidance and training on this.

See post above for X-13 rendering examples

Best to post your plan in a new topic as this is considered thread jacking as we are now off topic and is frowned upon in the community guidelines 

A few tweaks, spent 10 minutes on this, ignoring the bad fridge texture. Just a bunch of lighting changes/fixes and sun/backdrop fixes:
If this were my project I would swap all materials for my own

[scottharris]

14 hours ago, basilbabaa said:

As seen from earlier in this post, I have remained on X12 because of struggling with trying to learn how to optimize render quality in X13 with the changes CA has made from the rendering engine of X12.  I have just ordered a new Mac Studio and would like to upgrade to X14 when possible, but first would like to understand it in X13....

 

The Breckenridge plan was developed in 2016 (probably X11).   It predated our RTRT (real time raytracing) and the lighting in the model was designed for both standard rendering and CPU raytracing. It appears the plan’s lighting was left in the state for the CPU raytracing which required much, much brighter lighting; it does not look good in standard or PBR renders.  And, the materials were not in an ideal state. With at said X13’s rendering engine changed from OpenGL.  It’s dedicated on the Mac to Metal (PC = DirectX).  Older plans need to have the lighting model adjusted – in some cases substantially.   To get a softer lighting look more like X12, turn the lumens down further.  If you are on a Mac using the M1 – X14 runs directly w/o the Rosetta emulator – about 20% faster.  Below are a few of the settings adjusted in your modified Breckenridge home – more could be done.  To get a look at the current state of our rendering, take a look at the Austin Sample Plan. Hope this helps.

 

For a Mac w/o RTRT (real time raytracing)

Camera Settings

  Ray Casted Shadows  Off --> On

  Bloom On  --> Off

  Ambient Occlusion 100% --> 8%

Technique Options

  Camera Exposure 0.957 -->.3

  Brightness -53.04 -->25

Lights

  Under Cab Lights 428 -->25 LM

  Added Lights under Cabs 85.5 -->25 LM  --> Added Lights was only necessary for the CPU Raytrace option in this older plan

Materials

                Stainless U / V Roughness 90 / 30 -->40 /8

                Pendant Lights Glass -->Lighting White

                Flooring Polished --> General

 

PC w/ RTRT (real time raytracing)

  Ray Tracing On

  Backdrop Intensity 1,000

  Bloom Off

  Sun Off -->On

  100,000 --> 500

 

 

 

 

[basilbabaa]

@Renerabbitt & @scottharris  Thank you both.  I see what can be done, I just need to invest in some training time to learn how it is done.  

 

I have a lot on my plate the rest of the week, but will review the information and do some playing around when I free up a little and post back again soon.  I really appreciate it!

 

 

[basilbabaa]

I finally had some time to get back to this issue.  I just downloaded the X14 Beta.  All my rendering issues between X12 and X13 have been resolved!

 

Opening my X12 plan in X14 (as is AND with no material changeouts or modifications) looks fantastic!  

Unlike when opening it in X13, my plan appears just as clean and crisp in X14 as it did in X12; it actually looks better because the material rendering is far better in X14 than in X12.

 

Crisp clean lines and resolution CLARITY is back!  CA somehow managed to take the best of X12 and X13 rendering and combine those features into X14.  It's darn near perfect. I am so excited I cannot wait to get my new Mac Studio now.  I only wish that with the current supply chain bottlenecks, that I didn't have to wait until the end of July for it to ship.

 

Thank You CA for listening and acting.  I can tell that I am so going to enjoy working in X14!

[Steve_Nyhof]

I was reading this thread and not finding my answer. However, I had started my own thread and I found what I was looking for - maybe this was already assumed here, but I missed it... Maybe this will help someone else who stayed with X12 to move onto X14.