Dimensioning issues with X13

[Kbird1]

23 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

X13 is setting Panels 1/16th off the cabinet box it appears hence the two lines... ( and the gap between )

 

 

     

  

 

I had a play in a X13 Test Plan tonight and the Dims are behaving in a X13 Plan based on the X13 Residential Template, so some of the Issues I was seeing in My Client's X12 plan , may have something to do with how/what is done with X12 ( and earlier ) Plans when brought into X13 , ie they didn't have the opening or Door Snaps and perhaps they are being enabled in X13 when brought forward by default , but "under the hood".

 

I'd still like to know why CA is adding a 1/16th space ( reveal?) between the Box and End Panels as can be seen above.

 

this is my 1st time see the disappearing Hardware in Elev. Views too but AFAIK that is being worked on.

 

Not sure why my Crown Moulding flat stock is not showing in Elevation either or why Framed Doors don't show properly in a CS through the Cabinets but the Slab Drawers are.

 

* I really wish the lines from the "fake" Frameless wouldn't show in CS as well or be 3" wide so they look like the normal Rails....

 

Mick.    

[Alaskan_Son]

3 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I'd still like to know why CA is adding a 1/16th space ( reveal?) between the Box and End Panels as can be seen above.

 

There's nothing new about this particular behavior with applied panels.   Chief does the same thing with cabinet doors, cabinet drawers, and garage door panels just to name a few off the top. 

[Alaskan_Son]

8 hours ago, Whitehorse said:

 

Hi Michael,

 

Here is some advise to you.  You are not a people person and are just on here to sell your services, I can't believe that you are a Kitchen Designer and actually meet people in person.

Out of everyone that has been responding and trying to help you have done nothing but try to find error in how I am using this program. You are also very condescending in your responses. Ding, Ding Ding, do you think you are talking to one of your employees?  I feel very bad for them if you do have employees.  If you actually read what I have posted you would see what was going on but you obviously don't.  I have done just fine until this version and will get training if needed. I have been using this program for about 7 years successfully and will NEVER use this forum again. I thought I would talk to other users just to see if they were experiencing the same issues so that I could make a decision on what to do. When you are using this program, meeting with clients, accepting deliveries and working with installers you don't have the time to know every little thing about this program.  I bought Chief because it was user friendly.  This Version has some changes and I am not the only one having new issues.  I will figure it out, other people who responded actually gave me good advice and were kind, Thank You to everyone except Alaskan Son.  Find a job that does not involve humans!

 

Hey Debbie,

I'm sorry you feel that way and I wish you wouldn't quit so quickly.  I do apologize for incorrectly assuming that you hadn't sent a plan file to tech support, but the words you chose didn't make it clear you had, and your general attitude and actions afterward seemed to reinforce the idea.  The way you berated tech support for not helping or caring didn't exactly help your case either.  They're not there to provide training and teach you how to model or how to use all the tools, they're there to help you sort out problems with the software.  They demonstrated that it was working as it should and they weren't wrong.  What you really needed though was some better understanding of how the tools work in general and on how your modeling habits were affecting that process.  I think if you try to read back through my posts without prejudice that you'll find my advice was helpful, productive, and correct in this regard even if you didn't like how it was presented. 

 

Regarding the idea that I'm just trying to sell my services...I don't think you could be further from the truth.  I've donated FAR more hours helping out here on the forum than I have ever been paid for and its not even remotely close.  In fact, I haven't had time for any real amount of one-on-one training for a couple years now (I think I might have done 3 sessions this whole year) and routinely have to turn people down or refer them to someone else.  In fact, I spent a good part of my day trying to help you get to the bottom of your problems.  Had I not bugged you for the plan we likely would have never seen one, we likely would have never found out you were using parts and pieces to build your cabinets, we likely would have never found out you were using end to end dimensions and then manually pulling off new segments, and we likely would have never known your items weren't all properly aligned with each other.  These items are all crucial to understanding and addressing your problems. 

 

I am in fact a designer and a general contractor and I do deal successfully with clients, subcontractors, material suppliers, and employees on a daily basis.  To be fair, that is a little different then helping people for free here on the forum, particularly when they seem a little resistant to supplying what we need to help them or when they seem unwilling to recognize or admit that it may be their own practices or lack of understanding causing their problems and not the software.

 

When I said "ding ding ding" I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was simply highlighting that you had correctly pointed out the whole key to your problems and had underscored exactly why you're having problems in X13 that you never had in X12.  Your practices (flawed or not) weren't resulting in the unwanted dimension snaps because the snaps didn't previously exist.  Its not that they're functioning incorrectly now, its just that they weren't a thing before so even if you weren't using the tools in the most efficient or effective way, it's not something you would have picked up on.  

 

At the end of the day, I hope there's a few things you could take away from this:

1. Providing a plan file (even a stripped down version) is absolutely essentially to troubleshooting certain things.  A whole bunch of us (myself included) have donated A LOT of our valuable time to helping you out here.  Your involvement in that process is key and your providing the required information is a huge part of that and a way you can show us a little courtesy for the time we're donating.  You have to realize that we can't just take your word for it that you know what you're doing and that your settings are all correct.  As was pretty easily proven here today, you don't know what you don't know.  If you knew what you were doing wrong you wouldn't be here in the first place right?
2. Your practice of using multiple components to build your cabinets out of is going to have some inherent problems no matter what you do with your dimensions.  What looked like openings were all cabinets so you were almost certainly going to get all those snaps no matter what you did with your Locate settings.
3. Your practice of pulling off additional segments using the diamond edit handle is going to pick up on unwanted snaps all the time.  The Locate settings are only used on the initial pull or when you use the circular Add Segments edit handle.
4. I'm only trying to be helpful.  I usually just call things like I see them, but I'm just trying to help.  My direct and honest approach has really pissed off about dozen people here over the past 10 years.  Probably half dozen of those people I'm good friends with now.  Out of the last half dozen, 2 or 3 of them very clearly benefited from my guidance and put it to good use but could likely never admit it was anything I said, and the last 3 or 4 I just stopped helping.  When I see their threads I try to pass on by.  After some 10,000 posts and hundreds of other thankful users, I feel like that's a pretty decent record.  I really mean no harm and I have a lot of good advice to offer.  I sincerely hope you don't fall into that latter group of a half dozen people who don't benefit from it.
5. Don't give up on the forum.  There's a lot of super helpful people on here and this is really  the best place to come when you can't find what you need in the Help Files, in the Knowledge Base, in the Tutorial Videos, or in the Tutorial guide; when Technical Support can't seem to get to the bottom of it; or when its an issue that just isn't covered anywhere else.  I encourage reading the documentation and/or getting proper training (whether its with me or not) as primary learning tools because that's invariably where I see people learn the most effectively, but the forum is invaluable for all the oddball issues we run into in the real world.  If you still can't stand me that's fine, I can just add you to the short list of people I ignore, but  don't walk away for good just because of me.

[Whitehorse]

Thank you, I appreciate that and will let you know how it goes

[dshall]

The Alaskan Son is a great asset to this community.  I have met him in person and a very nice guy.  I do not think he needs to sell his services.  He is probably as busy as he wants to be.

 

I do very little serious cabinet dimensioning so I have not experienced these issues but as usual,  I learned a lot from this thread and what Michael was explaining.

 

These are the types of threads that I really love.  Lots of back and forth trying to determine if the user or the program is failing. 

 

I think we are all very lucky that some heavy hitters spent their time helping us understand some dimensioning methods.

[dshall]

14 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

Easy Peasy

 

 

Thanks Rabbit,  the video inspired me to better understand how to quickly change dimension defaults for cabinets.  Sometimes I tend buck the CA method,  but fortunately after beating my head against the wall for several years,  I always come around.

[Whitehorse]

11 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

Debbie I am not sure where the frustrations lie but I made a video that should help you out a ton.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArIPOe8v1SrklZxd3TbEXp3onVYy2w?e=DtMo0U

Hi Rene,

 

Very helpful, thank you.  Watched it twice and understand, I need to start a new design from scratch in X13 and will add the 1/2" cabinet dimensions.  Other members have made some other great suggestions that I am going to try.

[rgardner]

9 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

I've donated FAR more hours helping out here on the forum than I have ever been paid for and its not even remotely close.

Very true!  I have no doubt that I can speak for the whole community in saying that we appreciate all your top notch guidance and tricks/tips @Alaskan_Son.  

[Kbird1]

11 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

There's nothing new about this particular behavior with applied panels.   Chief does the same thing with cabinet doors, cabinet drawers, and garage door panels just to name a few off the top. 

 

I never said it was new, ( as noted in my X12 plan too) I was wonder why it was happening and shouldn't be. With Doors and Drawers I understand it as I assume CA is simulating the Bumper as well at the 3/4" thick Door , but there is no need or justification for it on Panels since the Doors and Drawers already have Reveals.

 

In my case it is frustrating as I now have two Clients who want Panel thickness noted as well, and it has to be done manually, then faked by moving the CAD line 1/16th.

 

M. 

[Renerabbitt]

43 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

I never said it was new, ( as noted in my X12 plan too) I was wonder why it was happening and shouldn't be. With Doors and Drawers I understand it as I assume CA is simulating the Bumper as well at the 3/4" thick Door , but there is no need or justification for it on Panels since the Doors and Drawers already have Reveals.

 

In my case it is frustrating as I now have two Clients who want Panel thickness noted as well, and it has to be done manually, then faked by moving the CAD line 1/16th.

 

M. 

Not at my desk to try a theory out but another option is that you can also just place a door in plan no?

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, dshall said:

 

The Alaskan Son is a great asset to this community

 

Most knowledgeable person I know in this program.. yes I said it Scott Harris

[Kbird1]

13 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

Not at my desk to try a theory out but another option is that you can also just place a door in plan no?

 

Yes I have tried that too actually , it's 6 of one and a 1/2 doz. of the other though  

 

It seems in X13 Moldings now wrap properly over End Panels automatically when added though , so I may not need to use Moldings lines for that from now on.

 

It appears we can now setup the reveals on  Doors and Drawers per the really world ie door flush at bottom and with a 1/8" Blank at the top get the 3/16th gap to the Countertop too. (pic below)

 

have not figured out why the 1x3 is missing in Elevation though.

 

M.

 

  

[MarkMc]

2 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

In my case it is frustrating as I now have two Clients who want Panel thickness noted as well, and it has to be done manually, then faked by moving the CAD line 1/16th.

Copy a door symbol to library, rename so you know it's for side panel, offset the Y origin 1/16"

Use that for "Accessories, Panels" in your default. Alas will have to change all of your existing.

[GeneDavis]

Why not "3/4" PANEL" callout with an arrow?

 

When would a kitchen plan have differing end panel thicknesses?  Why couldn't one note suffice to ID all applied ends?  If the panels are integrated into carcase build and not applied, why cannot that be simply annotated?

 

But my bigger question is, did Rene make it nice and clear and easy, and if no, why not?  Are you able to give us an example of what your fully dimensioned kitchen elevation (one will do, just screenshot it) needs to show.

[Kbird1]

On 8/12/2021 at 10:48 AM, MarkMc said:

Copy a door symbol to library, rename so you know it's for side panel, offset the Y origin 1/16"

Use that for "Accessories, Panels" in your default. Alas will have to change all of your existing.

 

 

Thanks I will look into that as another Option , since I doubt this will be fixed

 

**I guess I'm not allowed to be sad it won't be fixed.......so much for build it like it's built in the Real World........ there are some mighty petty people on this Forum/Thread downvoting everything, good thing I don't care , that whole system should be removed.

 

Mick.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, GeneDavis said:

Why not "3/4" PANEL" callout with an arrow?

 

When would a kitchen plan have differing end panel thicknesses?  Why couldn't one note suffice to ID all applied ends?  If the panels are integrated into carcase build and not applied, why cannot that be simply annotated?

 

Just a case of giving Clients what they want ....if they want it in the Dim. String, so be it....

 

Mick

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

1 minute ago, Kbird1 said:

 

 

Thanks I will look into that as another Option , since I doubt this will be fixed

 

Mick.

 

I personally don't really want it "fixed".  First off, sometimes we actually want these gaps and as such will place spacers on purpose so that panels align with adjacent door and drawer fronts.  Secondly, the visual results with the gaps are much more realistic looking in my opinion. 

 

4 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

I never said it was new...

It just seemed like you were starting to muddy the waters quite a bit.  The subject was on dimensioning issues specific to X13.  The issues you've brought up seem to be either largely off subject (elevation lines), not specific to X13 (panel gap), and/or unrelated to the original poster's issues. 

[Kbird1]

8 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I personally don't really want it "fixed".  First off, sometimes we actually want these gaps and as such will place spacers on purpose so that panels align with adjacent door and drawer fronts.  Secondly, the visual results with the gaps are much more realistic looking in my opinion. 

 

It just seemed like you were starting to muddy the waters quite a bit.  The subject was on dimensioning issues specific to X13.  The issues you've brought up seem to be either largely off subject (elevation lines), not specific to X13 (panel gap), and/or unrelated to the original poster's issues. 

 

The Gap should be 1/16th , not 1/8th , and I have never seen a good cabinet installer need to put "spacers" behind the End panels, that must look lovely every time the Client opens the Door or Drawer.

 

Not muddying ...... just clarifying my earlier Posts and what was or wasn't different from the X12 Client Plan brought forward to a clean X13 Test plan ...along with another couple of surprising finds, that you'll just have to get over and forgive me for mentioning....

 

M. 

[MarkMc]

Attached is plan that has the ez way to add side panels to cabinets that will dimension properly.

Don't float a door, configure a cabinet to do what you need.

These are configured for 1/16" reveal, make changes to match if different and save them to library. Be sure to set the Accessories/Panels to match your default door and these will comply.

 

The one on the left just gets placed but is set to NOT include that in the schedule. Side panels are considered a modification in most brands. (already have to add mods in a custom OIP field so no big deal)

 

The one on the right would be used if you need to order it loose as a door applied in the field. Then you want it in a schedule and want the size to read correctly. That one needs to be moved out from the wall by the size of reveal used, in this case 1/16", after placement.

 

You can also resize these to function as gable ends that align with the doors when placed on the side of a cabinet, typical in frameless cabinets.

This will match what is supplied by 99% of cabinet mfg. In the very rare cases we needed panels bumped out to align with a run of doors they were usually ordered as loose doors and that was a field install (naturally with full custom we could request that done by the maker instead.) I don't personally care if it is changed in Chief but I agree with Mick, it's wrong.

Flush Side Panel EZ_X12.zip

[MarkMc]

To clarify the behavior is correct for panels placed on the front of a run and for filler overlays, just not side panels. Then again Filler Overlays need a solution similar to the above to get into the schedule properly when those need to be a line item. I don't see a reason to have them go to the trouble to program for both/either/user input when there are workable solutions.'

[GeneDavis]

Nice technique, Mark.  When it comes to Chief cabinets, you're my favorite guru.  I bring my applied ends out with their frontside edges flush to the drawer and d'box fronts, so when modifying your model I get the countertop projecting out also.  Do you have the trick, or is it custom countertop time when doing applied ends my way?

[Alaskan_Son]

2 hours ago, MarkMc said:

 

To clarify the behavior is correct for panels placed on the front of a run and for filler overlays, just not side panels.

 

I mostly agree except that I think it can also be suitable for side panels where the side panel is in line with adjacent door/drawer fronts (think islands where the end cabinet is rotated 90 degrees).  Again though, accurate or not it doesn’t really bother me for the other circumstances because I think it looks more realistic and as you say, there are easy enough ways to make it accurate if you need it.

[MarkMc]

2 hours ago, GeneDavis said:

Do you have the trick, or is it custom countertop time when doing applied ends my way?

For Gable ends as you describe decrease the countertop overhang by the amount you increase the depth of the cabinet (left hand version)

Right had version is similar but a little trickier. If using a 1/16" reveal the counter overhang will not be drawn even with a custom counter. To get an overhang at the wall it has to be at least an 1/8". I also had an incorrect height on the right hand one (sorry in process of redoing all my library cabinets and had thrown them away ) Revised plan attached.

 

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

I think it can also be suitable for side panels where the side panel is in line with adjacent

Yes I noted - "in rare cases", doubt I've needed it 2 dozen times in 20 years as a full time KD. Of course YMMV.

Flush Side Panel EZ_X12.zip