CaseyT

Non-C.A. Electrical Resources for Permits

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My building permit department requires a lot more info than what C.A. currently provides, such as electrical panel schedule(s), load calculations and single line electrical drawings. They do not provide any samples, and I have not yet found any examples in the C.A. sample plans.

 

I would appreciate learning about any templates or other resources people use to supplement C.A. and provide this kind of info on the permit layout sheets.

 

I assume you just create it in Excel and import it? I've found some templates:

40.Forms-Electrical-Panel-Single-Three-P

https://ctlsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Single_phase_panel_layout_form.pdf

https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk17/?projectId=455800640#c4194b674810733d1e73850084679ea0

 

Also, there is very little info on the web about residential single line electrical drawings and, not being an EE, I only need main panel and sub-panel(s) - not all the upstream transformers, etc.

 

i know there are many very experienced designers here that probably have solved this problem long ago, and I would really appreciate it If I didn't have to "re-invent the wheel" so pretty please will you share your experience and/or links to to good resources? 

 

Perhaps this is something that might be added to a future version of C.A.?

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I've experienced many unnecessary requirements from building departments.  This one takes the cake.  Why in the heck to they want that?  What purpose does it serve?

I feel your pain.

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Where is this project?  Wow... I'd be curious to hear if or how many other folks have this requirement in the areas they work.  Is this for a general 'building permit' or a stand alone 'electrical permit'?
I've worked in around 30 different cities and counties around the S.F. bay area and never have I been required to provide anywhere near that level of information.
Gas lines, yes, but not electrical.    I sure hope this is not coming down the pike for all of us... yikes...PiTA.


I can't imagine it being anything automatic in C.A.... there are just too many different variables.  Sounds to me like the Chief Building Official in your jurisdiction is creating a make-work project for the local electrician(s).  Unless you're familiar with electrical, you're probably going to need an electrician to help you out.

 

For actually doing it in Chief, I would suggest separating lighting from receptacles, and using CAD lines/arcs with different colors for connecting each different circuit.

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City of Tucson. From https://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/integrated-planning/PDSD/Fill_-_Residential_Submittal_Requirements_January_2020_1.pdf

 

Electrical Requirements:

 Electrical Plans Fully dimensioned floor plan showing location and assigned circuit numbers of all outlets, luminaires, switches, appliances, panels, motors, disconnects, electrical and HVAC equipment. All outlets should indicate panel name or number

 One Line Diagram Include panel and feeder breaker ratings

 Panel Schedule Include panel numbers, voltage, phasing, location, bus size, circuit number, breaker sizing, and wire sizing.

 Lighting and Outdoor Lighting Code Compliance with the PC/COT Outdoor lightning code to include light budget calculations and considerations

 

Sigh...

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Blech!   Sounds like Tuscon hired a commercial electrician to be the CBO.   One avenue of moving forward you might look into is seeing if you can separate out the electrical part of the permit and do a deferred submittal for the electrical permit, which the electrician, once hired, can take care of.


Putting a 'fully dimensioned' plan together with electrical layout is asking for a mess in my opinion.  Dimensioned plans should be separate from the electrical plan.
For starters you can use the labels function in the Dbx for each receptacle and each light fixture and/or built-in appliance to assign them a circuit number.
Are you familiar with code for what appliances require their own circuits, and that there are two 20 amp circuits req'd for kitchen, etc., etc. ? If not, you're going to need to spend time reading, or just hire an electrician to help you out.  Better yet use the electrician who'll be doing the installation job.

If you do it yourself in Chief, you can layout and number all the different circuits then you can import the Panel Schedule you first pasted into the forum here, and fill-in the information... or better yet if you have software capable of editing PDF, then fill out the form in your PDF editor and then import it into Chief.  The plan-checker can then cross-ref your Schedule with the numbered circuits on your drawing.

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1 hour ago, DzinEye said:

Where is this project?  Wow... I'd be curious to hear if or how many other folks have this requirement in the areas they work.  Is this for a general 'building permit' or a stand alone 'electrical permit'?
I've worked in around 30 different cities and counties around the S.F. bay area and never have I been required to provide anywhere near that level of information.
Gas lines, yes, but not electrical.    I sure hope this is not coming down the pike for all of us... yikes...PiTA.


I can't imagine it being anything automatic in C.A.... there are just too many different variables.  Sounds to me like the Chief Building Official in your jurisdiction is creating a make-work project for the local electrician(s).  Unless you're familiar with electrical, you're probably going to need an electrician to help you out.

 

For actually doing it in Chief, I would suggest separating lighting from receptacles, and using CAD lines/arcs with different colors for connecting each different circuit.

Sonoma and vallejo counties homie, commercial projects, depends on the occupancy type. Assembly, for instance..in fact a lot of Bay Area counties require this.

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2 hours ago, CaseyT said:

i know there are many very experienced designers here that probably have solved this problem long ago, and I would really appreciate it If I didn't have to "re-invent the wheel" so pretty please will you share your experience and/or links to to good resources? 

Use notes and note schedule and take full advantage of the custom fields available in notes. Could whip up a bullet proof panel schedule that can be used for years to come with a little bit of front end planning

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1 hour ago, CaseyT said:

City of Tucson. From https://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/integrated-planning/PDSD/Fill_-_Residential_Submittal_Requirements_January_2020_1.pdf

 

Electrical Requirements:

 Electrical Plans Fully dimensioned floor plan showing location and assigned circuit numbers of all outlets, luminaires, switches, appliances, panels, motors, disconnects, electrical and HVAC equipment. All outlets should indicate panel name or number

 One Line Diagram Include panel and feeder breaker ratings

 Panel Schedule Include panel numbers, voltage, phasing, location, bus size, circuit number, breaker sizing, and wire sizing.

 Lighting and Outdoor Lighting Code Compliance with the PC/COT Outdoor lightning code to include light budget calculations and considerations

 

Sigh...

BTW assuming you are a junior drafter, for assumption sake, my local counties and municipalities don't require me to show half the items they have in their checklists. Get around the desk clerk and over to your planchecker and let them tell you what you need. Don't ask if you need to include something, ask a generalized question. Or submit and let them come back with a revision requirement. No harm in that, and you may save a boat load of hours.
My local plancheckers get so annoyed when I include too much because the last guy told me to. Unless they are subbing out the plan check, your local checker takes on some of the professional liability and is happy to do so if you prove your competence.

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Thanks Renerabbit for the good advice! Due to the Wuhan Virus the Permit Office is closed; not even answering the phones, so I'll have to wait to talk with them - electronic submitals only. This is my second owner-builder major remodel project. I've done lots of work for other contractors, including electrical, but getting the permits is way harder than just doing the remodel!

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38 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

Sonoma and vallejo counties homie, commercial projects, depends on the occupancy type. Assembly, for instance..in fact a lot of Bay Area counties require this.

Yes, for commercial projects...  I have not seen it required for residential? 

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6 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Yes, for commercial projects...  I have not seen it required for residential? 

I've had to do it for Contra Costa County. Did it long hand before X-12. 

I've got a client that we have to put the circuit numbers into the fixture symbol designation.

I've been building out new note tools for this very thing. You should see the craziness some of Texas is going through with electronic submittals.

Then I've got a client from Maine that you could literally have a 4 year old draw up and they would stamp it over the counter.

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27 minutes ago, CaseyT said:

This is my second owner-builder major remodel project. I've done lots of work for other contractors, including electrical, but getting the permits is way harder than just doing the remodel

If you're working for the Owner-Builder then they should provide the 'electrician' to layout the electrical.  Aside from code required specifics they probably have their own way of doing things. 

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DzinEye, sorry I wasn't clearer - I am the owner/builder for this project. This is my third C.A. project. I still have a lot of work to do on the plan set. but here it is if anyone is interested.

x12_6012 Hampton Enclose Breezeway.layout

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13 minutes ago, CaseyT said:

DzinEye, sorry I wasn't clearer - I am the owner/builder for this project. This is my third C.A. project. I still have a lot of work to do on the plan set. but here it is if anyone is interested.

x12_6012 Hampton Enclose Breezeway.layout

That looks like a layout file and not the plan file
here is an example of using notes to generate a panel schedule:

image.thumb.png.f2625e1b9d21c61a0865402f60347db5.png

 

PANEL CALC EXAMPLE.plan

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21 minutes ago, CaseyT said:

DzinEye, sorry I wasn't clearer - I am the owner/builder for this project. This is my third C.A. project. I still have a lot of work to do on the plan set. but here it is if anyone is interested.

x12_6012 Hampton Enclose Breezeway.layout

Ahh!.. ha ha ha.. okay!  Do you do the electrical work yourself or bid out to electricians?  

 

9 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

That looks like a layout file and not the plan file
here is an example of using notes to generate a panel schedule:

image.thumb.png.f2625e1b9d21c61a0865402f60347db5.png

 

PANEL CALC EXAMPLE.plan


Perfect!  I just got educated a bit on 'notes' fairly recently and have yet to use them.  Looks like just the ticket for this usage.

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I'm an electrical contractor, commercial / residential / light industrial.

Are you sure you're not looking at the commercial permits?  

I would call the permit office and ask for specifics.  Something to this level is usually not done by an architect, but an electrical engineer and only one commercial jobs.

If this is residential, they are way out of line.

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1 hour ago, DzinEye said:

Ahh

 

39 minutes ago, Electromen said:

If this is residential

Took me all of 2 minutes to find this listed as a requirement in a local municipality. They don't usually ask for it, but it is listed, even though it has a statement illustrating that it is a guide:

https://www.walnut-creek.org/home/showdocument?id=2682

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45 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

 

Took me all of 2 minutes to find this listed as a requirement in a local municipality. They don't usually ask for it, but it is listed, even though it has a statement illustrating that it is a guide:

https://www.walnut-creek.org/home/showdocument?id=2682

That's just a load calculation... okay, I do those all the time... that's very generic and takes a couple minutes to do... a far cry from what's being asked of Casey in Tuscon

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2 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

here is an example of using notes to generate a panel schedule:

This is very helpful, thank you. I had not yet learned to use notes, so this example was very intuitive.

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6 hours ago, CaseyT said:

electrical panel schedule(s), load calculations and single line electrical drawings

 

45 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

That's just a load calculation

Far Cry! you mean a soft whisper :D see above. Only thing that's missing is the line drawing as the load calc is often together with a panel schedule.

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For some of the remodels I do here, The City of Houston sometimes requires this but it has to be done by a licensed electrician to be submitted. 

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Searching for 'single line drawing', the first hit was for "smartdraw" Electrical Design Software.

 

Electrical Design Software

 

We have all seen these diagrams before; automobile wiring diagrams etc.

 

Lines showing wire paths, and standard symbols for components.  Must be symbols for outlets and
lighting as well as other architectural features.

 

Possibly to make sure you do not overload circuits. 

 

Never have had to do this, hope not to have to either.

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3 hours ago, BrownTiger said:

Something I did for fun many years ago.

Looks like that took some time to draw up. Thanks very much for sharing it! Now, just to modify it for the split (half-size) breakers and my layout. I will use this as the basis for a modified single line diagram, submit the plan package and then let them tell me what they want changed or added.

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I'm sometimes run into this, what gets me through is I tell them I do not have an electrician  yet and can have him come in for the electrical permit at a later time with the electrical .loads done by a licensed electrician. And you really don't want me doing it. 

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