# soffit

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i need to draw  the eve with a flat soffit area instead of sloped and it needs to be the same height as the ceiling. any ideas? thanks in advance

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Select 'boxed eave' in your roof dbx, but to get it to match ceiling height you'd have to have a flat roof or a dropped ceiling*... so you better include here a section of what you're hoping for.
* Unless you have deep rafters and clip the ends down to a much smaller fascia size.

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22 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Select 'boxed eave' in your roof dbx, but to get it to match ceiling height you'd have to have a flat roof or a dropped ceiling... so you better include here a section of what you're hoping for.

You can also raise your roof baselines so that the top of your sub-fascia = ceiling height + sub-fascia height. Just have fun figuring out that you can't specify a roof height by it's sub-fascia height. So you'll also need to know the vertical depth of your roof sheathing...for real.

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You can also build the roof as desired (heel heights, overhang, etc. and then simply measure and adjust the sub-fascia to move the soffit location.  This isn't unusual for the real world anyway where the control point is commonly the heel height.  I've often needed to move the fascia up, down, or rip it to get soffits right where I want them.

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I still don’t get why Chief still assumes the majority of North American homes are built with rafter style roofs as if we’re all building log cabins in the woods, or dog houses...

I’m sorry to offend some of you. My problem is still the roof dialogue box.  The old “raise off plate” remained an unsolved mathematical formulaic problem to produce the kind of A-frame roof trusses that sits on TOP of the top-plate, producing a boxed eave with the underneath of the eave flat and level with the top plate. This is so we can have adequate heel height for insulation and ventilation.

In X12 they included a handy diagram but it still does not seem to allow for easy manipulation of the values to produce the roof that 99% of homes built in the northeast and anywhere near the Canadian border are built. At least, I still don’t get it.

TL:DR  The roof is a big triangle that sits on top of the top plate. How hard can that be to program?

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57 minutes ago, Michael_Gia said:

I still don’t get why Chief still assumes the majority of North American homes are built with rafter style roofs as if we’re all building log cabins in the woods, or dog houses...

Not just Chief...stick-framing is/was always my assumption too... thereby why I was a bit confounded by the OP's request to have the eave soffit flush with the ceiling.  Can't really be done very easily.  Of course, with an energy heel truss that isn't a problem at all...didn't even think of that until I saw Michael mention 'heel height' in his post.  I'm in 'North America' and I think I've done two houses with truss roofs in the last 30 years... it simply doesn't come to mind for me.   I do notice that a lot of the regulars here seem to often use trusses, so maybe it is a lot more common than I realize.  I only ever played with Chiefs truss features briefly quite a while back, then again briefly recently when Michael posted about how to get the energy heel to frame as expected when it's short.   It does seem a bit cumbersome/awkward to use trusses in Chief compared to the automatic stick framing it provides... is that your gripe?

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That is indeed my gripe.

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My gripe too.

In the last 20 years here in Florida for me, only remodels & add on's get conventional framing roof systems.

I do remember a few cathedral ceilings with rafters but they were add-ons.

I prefer cantilevered trusses personally as they provide more exterior wall reveal above windows and are easier to frame.

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Guys, this gets us into the same "Apple vs. PC" catch 22. I will admit, the new dbx is an improvement, but not there yet. Where I am it's probably 90% stick framed roof in residential, trusses in lite commercial. The local contractors want to keep their framers on roofs and stick framing is the better way to do that. That being said, trusses are becoming more popular, especially in my business, as these new, young, female mostly (not sexist at all) clients want 50% of the entire house with no interior walls and great, soaring spaces! Pinterest is my friend, Pinterest is my friend, Pinterest is my friend....

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Wow, rafters on a new house. Remind me again how far you can span a 5/12 pitch roof with a vaulted or coffered ceiling?

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In my experience as a framer, builder, and designer, trusses are being used in about 90% of all new construction in regions I have worked in or am familiar with (mostly Alaska, Northwest, and Hawaii).  The main exceptions are very small roof planes or high end projects with either timber framing or other exposed rafter systems.

I know this varies regionally, but that’s my experience for whatever it’s worth.

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Unless you’re framing your own home, I don’t see the savings benefit of not going with manufactured roof trusses.

Allowing a carpenter to build rafters on site for a decently sized home is costing you money in time wasted, mistakes, and questionable on site structural guess work.

I don’t get it. This is why I don’t see why a program like Chief, which is so well suited to sending plans off to a Truss manufacturer, isn’t more geared to prefab roof trusses instead of onsite rafters.

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3 hours ago, Michael_Gia said:

Allowing a carpenter to build rafters on site for a decently sized home is costing you money in time wasted, mistakes, and questionable on site structural guess work.

I don’t get it. This is why I don’t see why a program like Chief, which is so well suited to sending plans off to a Truss manufacturer, isn’t more geared to prefab roof trusses instead of onsite rafters.

You sure are downplaying the abilities of roof framers?!... I mean, sure there are crappy ones just like in any field, but jeez.  I do a lot of cathedral and vaulted ceilings, and I absolutely despise scissor trusses (except exposed timber frame ones)... and my roofs tend to be fairly complex, all making trusses far less cost effective.

While I can see it might be nice to have Chief more automatically provide your trusses, I'm not sure I get the full gist of your gripe.  Truss companies design their own truss systems based on a roof and ceiling plan, and aren't going to be looking for you to provide them with a truss design.  While my experience with trusses is quite limited, I never had any issue sending them plans for a stick built roof and them providing the appropriate truss design.

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Personally I don't care how structurally accurate they are as they are schematic for me. The truss guy's do all the hard work but the building departments want a representation of trusses on the plans. So I want to quickly build them by pushing a button and with the correct envelope dimensions and place them on top of the wall as I specified.

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Exactly my position as well...50 years of building across the upper Midwest has shown me that trusses are predominate in most areas. Designing for years on a board meant hand drawing artists conceptions of a truss framed roof for client and municipality amusements. Plans always contained the typical trusses are engineered by others comment.

When I took the cad plunge I did not expect that designing with trusses would be a somewhat convoluted process with stick framing being the default. Chief provides a checkbox for trusses but in the little brother series, HD2021, a bunch of additional steps are required to actually build with trusses. Am I incorrect in assuming similar conditions exist in Premeir?

Great discussions happen here...much appreciated that little brother owners are allowed to participate...a few more projects and I will likely upgrade to Premier...

Regards

Rick

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You’ve are correct. Premier adds nothing, regarding trusses.

The truss checkbox is a joke at the moment.

Here is the simple and prevalent condition I’m looking to build.
And I don’t want to have to take a cross section and measure how much I need to raise or lower my roof planes to achieve this.
I would like a roof dialogue box to adress this in a clear and obvious way.

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FYI, I found this post informative years ago.

You should not have to "jump through hoops" to create a cantilever truss. It needs to be a CHECKBOX

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Just to chime in on the trusses/stick built roof comments.

Here in Indianapolis...just about every production built home uses trusses...and production built homes are probably 85% of all new homes built in my area.  However, I'd say 85% of custom designed/built homes are stick framed.

I recently talked to a field project manager for Arthur Rutenberg Homes.  I asked him why they don't use trusses on their homes...which are huge and beautiful homes for the most part...he made a statement that made me stop in my tracks.  He said to me..."most of our clients think that homes constructed with trusses are cheap".  This statement just shows a perception that still exists...not only by the people in construction but also by customers who are purchasing large and expensive homes.  I have no doubt this gentleman believed what he said...because all production homes are constructed with trusses (in my area)...and Arthur Rutenberg does not want their customers to associate Rutenberg custom homes with lower priced production homes.  It's Marketing-101.

As I walked through the Rutenberg home I took note of the roof construction and saw the typical issues that stick built framing can bring when it comes to big complex roof structures. Long rafters that were braced in some cases down to non-load bearing walls....sometimes supported by a doubled up 2x ceiling joist right in the middle of a span.  Obviously...this project manager allowed the framer they hired to become the engineer.

The plans were in the home I was touring...so, I reviewed them. No details on roof bracing were included.  There were plenty of framing details...just none on how and where to brace the roof.

Now...I'm sure the roof won't collapse or anything...but, in regards to the structural integrity of roof design, stick framed roof systems (typically...not all) are no comparison to an engineered truss roof system...especially if the framer is allowed to become the engineer on the project.  Truss roof systems have problems also...I'm not saying they are a panacea.  And I think for a large home with a complex roof system...roof trusses might be too expensive.  And...sometimes lot conditions just don't allow room for a crane to help lift the trusses up to the roof.

One other thing that has led some builders to stick framing is the availability of getting trusses versus picking up the phone and getting lumber dropped onto the site in a few days. After the 2008 housing crash a large number of Indianapolis lumber yards disappeared and so did a lot of truss manufacturing companies.  This I believe has made obtaining trusses for large custom homes more of a challenge.

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Alan

Thanks for the link...I can open it but can't use it to learn much as I can't edit it in HD2021...it is exactly what I would like to see as a 1 click checkbox setting...while I am dreaming about a positive change, might as well ask for 2 click attic trusses...I realize roof pitch and headroom considerations must be met but with a bit of programming expertise Chief  software is capable of sorting those issues...

DJP once said that this software was designed by smart people who know little about building....conversely...there are a lot of smart builders that are not programmers  who use this software that would love to help Chief provide these tools...

Regards

Rick

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I’ll let the cat out of the bag here.

It’s just plain lazy and a result of disorganization that general contractors get their carpenters to stick frame.

In order to get roofs, floor systems and even prefab walls manufactured, requires precise plans to be submitted 4 to 6 weeks before you need them.
This means you can’t change things on the fly because of inaccurate plans.
It also means getting your clients to sign off on plans and tell them, “that’s it, no more changes”. Most guys don’t have the guts to tell their clients when enough is enough.

We build in extreme conditions up here. This is why I get stuff pre-manufactured. Even my exterior walls and all support walls. They come wrapped in plastic so the insulation and lumber doesn’t get wet.

I guess if I was building in Arizona I would do things differently. Hopefully I can retire in a place like that, but for now, I’ll keep battling the elements.

If my comments come off as a little antagonistic it’s probably a result of this damn isolation crap. lol

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Steve

Excellent post

The field manager may say that "clients think trusses equate to cheap" but imo the company is not doing their job educating the client... I have built production houses and million dollar customs...designed on my drawing table...never had a client bring up trusses vs stick built...I suspect the builder you mentioned likes the marketing provided by ,IMO, misdirecting clients to a perceived value...

I had to smile when you mentioned the creative  "backyard engineering" created onsite to address apparent to the framer issues with the framing support system...I too have stood in structures and asked myself "who came up with this"...it points out the ridiculous position of building departments that require engineering for trusses but inspectors can approve stick built 'engineering" onsite...not saying the trusses do not need engineered structure...just pointing out a disparity..

Again...great discussion

Regards

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1 minute ago, Michael_Gia said:

It’s just plain lazy and a result of disorganization that general contractors get their carpenters to stick frame.

It also means getting your clients to sign off on plans and tell them, “that’s it, no more changes”. Most guys don’t have the guts to tell their clients when enough is enough.

Yes...and yes.

I spent hours reviewing truss drawings for large multi-family projects. Hundreds of different trusses for a single building. I would always find errors...mostly because the architect we were using had made dimension errors...but, thats an entire new can of worms right there.  But...review/markup...new drawings sent...approved. This process could take weeks.

So...yes, builders don't have the patience and customers don't want to sign off...especially when they are spending a million dollars (that's 2.5 million in California) to construct a home. These customers just feel they should have the "right" to change their mind. It's costly...but, home builders allow this practice so it has become a standard.

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I see framers that don't know the difference between a ridge board and a ridge beam. So they should not be making structural decisions with the roof framing.

To be fair with the framers I sub work from an Archicet that doesn't know the difference either.

And don't get me started on collar ties.

Nice to have something to think about other than Covid-19.

Thanks

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2 hours ago, Michael_Gia said:

You’ve are correct. Premier adds nothing, regarding trusses.

This is not true.  I'm not sure of all the differences but 2 really big ones jump out at me right away...

• Truss Base
• Truss Detail

...both major enhancements for anyone actually wanting or needing to draw trusses to any degree of accuracy.

2 hours ago, Michael_Gia said:

The truss checkbox is a joke at the moment.

Just because it doesn't do what you would like it to doesn't make it a joke.  That's a little harsh.

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...In  35 years of Construction Management...I have only worked with 3 architects that get it...one is in the Indy market...another works mostly with Native American projects...he once told me that he can draw anything but the field guys have to build it...he made a huge error on a large project regarding ADA restrooms...I have extensive experience in that arena...obtained in a large project in the Indy market...he panicked when I called him...he was surprised when I told him I already had the fix and I needed his approval...we got along quite nicely after that issue...

...and don't get me started on inspectors...

Regards

Rick