kwhitt

Applied Molding on 45 degree tray ceilng

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I've got a 12/12 tray ceiling to which I want to apply a base cap molding - see attached.  I have tried using a 3D molding polyline drawn in an elevation view and rotating.  Doesn't work.  Could anyone tell me how you would go about doing this?  Thanks, Kevin

Untitled 1.jpg

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17 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

I've got a 12/12 tray ceiling to which I want to apply a base cap molding - see attached.  I have tried using a 3D molding polyline drawn in an elevation view and rotating.  Doesn't work.  Could anyone tell me how you would go about doing this?  Thanks, Kevin

Untitled 1.jpg

 

I would use a molding polyline, shape it as a Trapezoid, then convert to a symbol and then rotate to match ceiling slope.

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I think a 3d molding would work but you'd need an intimate knowledge of all the spacial coordinates (x,y,z) in order to enter them for each segment. I'd go with Graham's suggestion.

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"...convert to a symbol and then rotate to match ceiling slope"

 

Or make it flush mounted to the ceiling.  You might notice how the ceiling registers will automatically rotate to sit on the sloped part of a tray ceiling.

 

ceiling register.png

 

ceiling register 2.png

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The problem with using a 3D molding is not only the struggle to get the basic shape in all the right planes but you can't rotate the molding as you match the ceiling slope. You would need to do this on the horizontal moldings. CA has added some ability to do this but from what I see it only allows the molding profile to be rotated in 90 degree increments.

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Absolutely agree. Not at all easy. A bit of math with your slope gain factor will get you the right shape to draw the molding in plan view, then convert to symbol, and place accurately.

Note that I had to rotate my moldings 44 degrees, not 45 in order to get them to line up with my sloped ceiling.

image.thumb.png.0496431af55cc692b7356927a4984afa.pngimage.thumb.png.1029836526d36023f908c630ca7c3e69.pngimage.thumb.png.63300fd15d488f9a3cb88574406aa5c4.png

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Here is a probably over complicated way of creating the molding symbol.

 

Make a symbol from one of the ceiling planes. Rotate it so it's vertical. CAD Detail From View.

 

Outline the ceiling plane, concentric resize, copy and paste back in elevation. Convert to 3D Molding Polyline and add your molding.

 

Make symbol of molding setting stretch plane and rotate to match ceiling plane. 

 

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Thanks Everyone.  Eric - I didn't realize you could convert a ceiling/roof plane into a symbol.  I'll give this a try when I get to the office.  Thanks again.

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11 hours ago, solver said:

Here is a probably over complicated way of creating the molding symbol.

 

Make a symbol from one of the ceiling planes. Rotate it so it's vertical. CAD Detail From View.

 

Outline the ceiling plane, concentric resize, copy and paste back in elevation. Convert to 3D Molding Polyline and add your molding.

 

Make symbol of molding setting stretch plane and rotate to match ceiling plane. 

 

 

Eric - another fantastic solution.  Thank you!

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On 2/19/2020 at 10:57 PM, solver said:

Here is a probably over complicated way of creating the molding symbol.

 

Make a symbol from one of the ceiling planes. Rotate it so it's vertical. CAD Detail From View.

 

Outline the ceiling plane, concentric resize, copy and paste back in elevation. Convert to 3D Molding Polyline and add your molding.

 

Make symbol of molding setting stretch plane and rotate to match ceiling plane. 

 

Eric - I think your method would work, but these aren't ceiling planes - they're roof planes.  When I make a symbol from them, the intersections are not taken into account.  Is it possible to generate a non-orthographic elevation in CA (a section view perpendicular to the roof plane where I can outline this shape with a molding polyline)?

roof plan.jpg

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On 2/19/2020 at 6:56 PM, Dermot said:

"...convert to a symbol and then rotate to match ceiling slope"

 

Or make it flush mounted to the ceiling.  You might notice how the ceiling registers will automatically rotate to sit on the sloped part of a tray ceiling.

 

ceiling register.png

 

ceiling register 2.png

Dermot.  I went ahead and created the symbol in FormZ and imported back into Chief.  I really like your idea of using it as a flush mounted from ceiling object, but cannot get it to work.  Would you mind taking a look at the symbol and let me know where I've gone wrong?  I have attached the .plan and .calibz file.  Thanks!

tray applied molding.jpg

tray applied molding.calibz

tray_applied_molding.plan

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2 hours ago, kwhitt said:

Eric - I think your method would work, but these aren't ceiling planes - they're roof planes.  When I make a symbol from them, the intersections are not taken into account.  Is it possible to generate a non-orthographic elevation in CA (a section view perpendicular to the roof plane where I can outline this shape with a molding polyline)?

 

It's super quick to draw the correct polyline for your molding in plan view...you just need to use the slope gain factor.

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Its actually pretty easy to do this...

  1. Open your roof or ceiling plane, check Pitch In Degrees, and copy that angle.
  2. Create an Orthographic Full Overview.
  3. Use the 3D>View Direction tools in 3D or the Make Parallel/Perpendicular tool in Plan View to orient the camera so that it is perpendicular with the desired roof or ceiling plane.
  4. Open the Camera in Plan View or click the Edit Active View tool in 3D and paste the roof/ceiling plane angle into the Tilt Angle field.
  5. Use the Delete Surface tool to delete surfaces until you can see the profile of your ceiling surface.
  6. Create a CAD Detail From View
  7. Draw the desired molding outline in that CAD Detail using your ceiling plane shape.
  8. Cut that closed polyline, paste into a plan view
  9. Convert To>Molding Polyline and apply the desired molding
  10. Convert Selected To Symbol and using Advanced Options...
  11. Rotate the symbol along the appropriate axis (likely the X axis) to the roof/ceiling plane angle
  12. Place the object into your plan and reposition in plan view and section view as necessary so it attaches to your ceiling as desired.

NOTE:  You can also forgo changing the angle of the symbol and use the flush mounted option as Dermot suggested.  It has some of its own quirks to contend with though and I find you still need to go through basically the same steps to reposition it in section anyway.  It does however stay attached to the ceiling which is a plus if you decide to move your ceiling up or down.

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1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Its actually pretty easy to do this...

  1. Open your roof or ceiling plane, check Pitch In Degrees, and copy that angle.
  2. Create an Orthographic Full Overview.
  3. Use the 3D>View Direction tools in 3D or the Make Parallel/Perpendicular tool in Plan View to orient the camera so that it is perpendicular with the desired roof or ceiling plane.
  4. Open the Camera in Plan View or click the Edit Active View tool in 3D and paste the roof/ceiling plane angle into the Tilt Angle field.
  5. Use the Delete Surface tool to delete surfaces until you can see the profile of your ceiling surface.
  6. Create a CAD Detail From View
  7. Draw the desired molding outline in that CAD Detail using your ceiling plane shape.
  8. Cut that closed polyline, paste into a plan view
  9. Convert To>Molding Polyline and apply the desired molding
  10. Convert Selected To Symbol and using Advanced Options...
  11. Rotate the symbol along the appropriate axis (likely the X axis) to the roof/ceiling plane angle
  12. Place the object into your plan and reposition in plan view and section view as necessary so it attaches to your ceiling as desired.

NOTE:  You can also forgo changing the angle of the symbol and use the flush mounted option as Dermot suggested.  It has some of its own quirks to contend with though and I find you still need to go through basically the same steps to reposition it in section anyway.  It does however stay attached to the ceiling which is a plus if you decide to move your ceiling up or down.

Michael - thanks for the explanation.  I am not following at all.  In step 2 you instruct to create an orthographic full overview and in step 3 you say to use the 3D > View direction.  Are these steps "either or"?

 

I already have the shape.  It was drawn in FormZ and imported into Chief.  But, I am not able to get it to attach to the ceiling slope (whether specified as flush mounted to ceiling or default location).  I can get close, but when I move it slightly upward in a camera view, it disappears.  I have tried moving it from a clipped cross section - evidently it is not possible to move objects in such views as I don't see the bounding box or the move handle.  I have also used a cross section and deleted surfaces so that I can see what I'm doing.  Every time I move the molding, the deleted surfaces reappear making it impossible to position.

 

Your explanation above is using methods & tools that I have yet to try.  I have not been able to get past step 2.  Thanks again.

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19 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

In step 2 you instruct to create an orthographic full overview and in step 3 you say to use the 3D > View direction.  Are these steps "either or"?

Not either/or... doing this step puts the orthographic camera directly above, so you are looking straight down e.g. 'plan view'.  Then use the copied tilt angle from step one and input into the ortho-camera's tilt angle so the camera will then be oriented perpendicular to the ceiling plane you want to put the molding on.

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7 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

Not either/or... doing this step puts the orthographic camera directly above, so you are looking straight down e.g. 'plan view'.  Then use the copied tilt angle from step one and input into the ortho-camera's tilt angle so the camera will then be oriented perpendicular to the ceiling plane you want to put the molding on.

Mark thanks.   I'm still not getting it.  Do I go back to plan view or this orthographic view that I just created what you're calling the "plan view"?  I'm not sure where I am to use the "make parallel/perpendicular tool".  Not that this part really matters if I am unable to position the newly created molding line.  I usually pick these things up quite quickly - not the case here.  I appreciate the feedback.

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5 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

Do I go back to plan view or this orthographic view that I just created what you're calling the "plan view"?  I'm not sure where I am to use the "make parallel/perpendicular tool".

You're using the orthographic camera view.  I should have said TOP VIEW instead of plan view... that's how I see it, but the correct terminology is Top View.  So  set the ortho camera to TOP VIEW... open up that camera's Dbx and then put in the tilt angle so it's looking straight down at the angle of the ceiling plane.  I would cut and paste the angle from step 1, but apparently according to Michael you can use the make parallel/perp tool...  but I'm not familiar with doing that with a camera.   

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2 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Open the Camera in Plan View or click the Edit Active View tool in 3D and paste the roof/ceiling plane angle into the Tilt Angle field.

Ahaa...interesting,  I just noticed that in X12 the 'Edit Active Camera' option does not appear under the 3D drop-down menu.  It doesn't pop-up as a command for 'hot keys' either. I guess we have to resort to choosing the ortho camera from the plan view.

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18 minutes ago, DzinEye said:

You're using the orthographic camera view.  I should have said TOP VIEW instead of plan view... that's how I see it, but the correct terminology is Top View.  So  set the ortho camera to TOP VIEW... open up that camera's Dbx and then put in the tilt angle so it's looking straight down at the angle of the ceiling plane.  I would cut and paste the angle from step 1, but apparently according to Michael you can use the make parallel/perp tool...  but I'm not familiar with doing that with a camera.   

Thank you Mark.  I'm getting there.  The ortho camera is quite cool.  I needed to use the back view as when using top, it was necessary to delete the roof planes to see underneath and by doing so I had nothing to trace for my molding as the ceiling was then gone.  Attached are some images for anyone that might be following and unfamiliar with using a ortho camera.

 

Michael states under step 8 "Cut that closed polyline, paste into a plan view."  I tried pasting in the plan view and nothing shows up.  He says "a" plan view which leads me to believe I have to create a new one or do I paste it back into the ortho camera view?  Either way, I don't see my polyline so that I can convert to molding.

Untitled 2.jpg

CAD from VIEW.jpg

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Turn on the ceiling break lines, make a polyline for the ceiling shape, adjust for the slope gain factor, concentric resize smaller as desired, convert to molding, convert to symbol, rotate symbol, place under ceiling. Copy, reflect about object to place on the other side.

Result is a molding that looks right in 3D as well as in 2D. Drawback: it's not "connected" to the ceiling.

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Thanks Rob.  I didn't realize I could show "ceiling break lines".  I think your method is faster to get the molding line, but doesn't give any visual feedback for offsetting the molding in relation to the ceiling.

 

I now know three methods for creating the molding polyline (importing from another app, drawing from ortho camera,  and drawing from plan view taking into account slope gain factor), but can't for the life of me figure out how to place the molding on the ceiling.  As I explained above, I can't move it in a standard camera view accurately, I can't move it in a clipped cross section view, and I can't see it in a standard cross section view.  When I delete surfaces in standard cross section, one move of the mouse and they all come back.  I'd appreciate any help placing the molding polyline where it belongs on the ceiling.  Kevin

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15 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

Thanks Rob.  I didn't realize I could show "ceiling break lines".  I think your method is faster to get the molding line, but doesn't give any visual feedback for offsetting the molding in relation to the ceiling.

 

I now know three methods for creating the molding polyline (importing from another app, drawing from ortho camera,  and drawing from plan view taking into account slope gain factor), but can't for the life of me figure out how to place the molding on the ceiling.  As I explained above, I can't move it in a standard camera view accurately, I can't move it in a clipped cross section view, and I can't see it in a standard cross section view.  When I delete surfaces in standard cross section, one move of the mouse and they all come back.  I'd appreciate any help placing the molding polyline where it belongs on the ceiling.  Kevin

Take a section view, click on the symbol and move it the right amount in the z direction. 

image.thumb.png.7f42ed98c3cbc7eacc18792fe5dcd20a.pngimage.thumb.png.5c0c7e2dbc02aad660af645ef259f20a.pngimage.thumb.png.9b6aa9dba76865d5363fd33bf73a5db8.png

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14 minutes ago, robdyck said:

Take a section view, click on the symbol and move it the right amount in the z direction. 

image.thumb.png.7f42ed98c3cbc7eacc18792fe5dcd20a.pngimage.thumb.png.5c0c7e2dbc02aad660af645ef259f20a.pngimage.thumb.png.9b6aa9dba76865d5363fd33bf73a5db8.png

 

Thanks Rob.  I've finally got it.  I appreciate all the help.  Kevin

Untitled 3.jpg

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31 minutes ago, kwhitt said:

I'd appreciate any help placing the molding polyline where it belongs on the ceiling.

Okay, I just went through the 'exercise'.   First I tried the method Dermot suggested, of setting the symbol to flush mount on the ceiling, but that didn't do anything.  Probably user error, but my symbol just sat there on the floor.  What worked was first tilting the symbol appropriately then locating it in plan view with the ceiling planes showing.  Then open a section view and measure the height from top of the molding to where it should hit the ceiling.  For accuracy I drew a vertical line and got the length from it's properties.  Then simply moved the symbol vertically by that amount.

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