Any Advice On Starting A Design/drafting Business (Using Chief)?

[lbuttery]

But anyone, including architects, can be sued for gross negligence

 

Richard:

 

absolutely, no disagreement here at all

 

 

But if you don't know what you are doing, the odds of prevailing drop dramatically

 

here is where we disagree

 

and it is just over semantics and a measure of degree

 

in non-legalese my contracts and disclaimers stated that

what we did was "draw pretty pictures"

that ALL structural and code compliance was the responsibility of the builder who signed/stamped the plans

that ALL info on such plans was provided by the builder

 

that is what "transfer of liability" is all about

it can be done in a properly worded contract/disclaimer

 

Find a competent small business attorney

 

this is a given - to achieve a properly worded contract/disclaimer

 

can the courts "pierce the veil" - absolutely

 

Lew

[Richard_Morrison]

 

in non-legalese my contracts and disclaimers stated that

what we did was "draw pretty pictures"

that ALL structural and code compliance was the responsibility of the builder who signed/stamped the plans

that ALL info on such plans was provided by the builder

 

Then it pretty much sounds like you could be misclassified as an independent contractor if you drew exactly what the builder told you to draw, with no independent thinking or knowledge on your part, and on an hourly basis. Any builder hiring you on this basis could be subject to big fines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misclassification_of_employees_as_independent_contractors.

[jcaffee]

it can be done in a properly worded contract/disclaimer

 

No, it can't.  Unless you have process to support the terms in your contract.   Relying solely on a clause in a contract leaves you at the mercy of judge/jury.  However, supporting the obligations of all parties via an action process (Think signoff sheet/validated email workflow/etc., etc.) leaves little doubt re: contractual obligation.

 

jon

[lbuttery]

Richard:

 

I worked for decades as a programmer for hire and am quite familiar with those W-2 requirements

 

There was a 20 questions form to answer and if any of the answers were yes

then you were an employee

 

If I did designs for one builder then I would be their employee

but I did designs for many builders across many states and even foreign countries

 

Lew

[lbuttery]

Unless you have process to support the terms in your contract

 

Jon:

 

that is correct

 

Lew

[Fun2Learn]

Thanks for all the responses and good info and food for thought! Thanks for the document link, Richard. I downloaded it and will try to wade through it! Thanks, Lew, for highlighting some pertinent parts of it, too. Thanks, Jon, for the interesting link to the article about the "interior designers" getting arrested--how ridiculous!!

 

Now I understand why one interior design blogger, whom I follow online,  made a point to state that she is not an "interior designer" but a "decorator". She stated that she could not advise clients to tear down walls or rearrange their kitchens, but could totally transform their space with the right wall color and toss pillows! (and she is quite good at that --she is a well known  "color expert"). So perhaps, since she is very visible on-line, her attorney advised her to state that up front that she is not a "designer". I don't think the public understands the difference at all and uses the terms interchangeably.

 

Now as far as an architect goes, that is quite a different thing entirely. Most people understand the difference between a licensed architect and a draftsman, right? Can you go wrong just advertising that you provide residential drafting services? 

 

Thanks,

Phyllis

 

P.S. I am having too much fun learning on my new Chief Architect X6!!! I can sit here for hours and not realize how much time has gone by and have to force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour! I feel like a kid on Christmas with a boat-load of new toys to try out! Those extra training videos (that I couldn't access with just the trial) are great. I just discovered the residential project series, and that is a fantastic way to learn!

[builtright3]

I started my construction business 27 years ago when I was 23 years old. Have always done my own drawings by hand and then started using Chief 8.0 full version when it came out. Best program ever in my opinion and it just keeps getting better.

 

I like the advice shared today. I would have liked to have here'd it when I first started but instead I learned totally by trial and error. The best advice I think I could give though is to be aware of what other contractors are doing but don't try to compare yourself to much or copy someone else's model. You need to be diversified a little to keep yourself busy but too much of that can be dangerous also. I think the best advice my Dad ever gave me in business was find your nitch and specialize in it. At that time I was all over the board. I would do anything that I thought that I could make a buck at but in reality I was so scattered and the quality of my work was not very good so I was always stressed out and I had people upset at me. Not a Good Place to Be!

 

Now I have a good reputation that goes back about 22 years and I cant keep up with the referrals I get. I actually have to turn some jobs away. The Lord has blessed me greatly. I learned in residential construction especially you have to be a servant to your customers first. Have good communication, be open and honest, be willing to educate your customers and take the time to listen to what their wants and needs are. You should also figure out what you want or need for an income so you can figure out what your rates are going to be and don't negotiate your rates with them (you are not a car salesmen!). You can't give them your time and a quality job if your out chasing money because your not getting paid enough. I don't know what it is but when you allow someone to get you to lower your numbers I think you just lost respect or something because now they want a deal on everything. Been down that road a couple of times, not a good place to be.

 

Not sure if this makes sense or helps anyone but I felt the need to share. I'm not one of those paranoid guys that thinks they are hurting there business by sharing with others. I prefer to help when I can. It's never hurt my business. I think the God has blessed me because I try to help.

[Fun2Learn]

 

 

Now I have a good reputation that goes back about 22 years and I cant keep up with the referrals I get. I actually have to turn some jobs away. The Lord has blessed me greatly. I learned in residential construction especially you have to be a servant to your customers first. Have good communication, be open and honest, be willing to educate your customers and take the time to listen to what their wants and needs are. You should also figure out what you want or need for an income so you can figure out what your rates are going to be and don't negotiate your rates with them (you are not a car salesmen!). You can't give them your time and a quality job if your out chasing money because your not getting paid enough. I don't know what it is but when you allow someone to get you to lower your numbers I think you just lost respect or something because now they want a deal on everything. Been down that road a couple of times, not a good place to be.

 

Not sure if this makes sense or helps anyone but I felt the need to share. I'm not one of those paranoid guys that thinks they are hurting there business by sharing with others. I prefer to help when I can. It's never hurt my business. I think the God has blessed me because I try to help.

Thanks, Joe. I can see why your business has done so well, based on your great attitude toward both the customer as well as your own financial needs. Do I understand you correctly that you are still a contractor that does his own drawings, or have you switched to doing drawings and designs for other contractors--just curious. I am hoping that most contractors would prefer to hire someone else to do their drawings, though, so I can hopefully get some work, LOL.

  I am hearing "loud and clear" from you all to not "sell yourself" short when it comes to charging for your services--something I would probably be prone to do, so this is needed and appreciated advice. Thanks again,

Phyllis

[builtright3]

When I walk into a customers home I sell them a conceptual design right off the but and I have it done for them in a couple of days. Then I put together a proposal to do the work. This way I get paid for something even if they don't use me to do the work. But I get 95% of the jobs that I design. Once we sign a contract I finish the Architectural drawings in a few days and send it over to the engineer. He has it one week and then I take it to the city for submittal.

 

The reason I'm telling you this is because to answer your question. I can't find anyone that can move this fast for me. You have to strike wile the iron is hot or you loose the job. I want not only the design but more importantly the construction. Once I sell a design, if I had someone that was willing to go out and measure and move that fast then I would hire them but every designer I have meant wants to take a month or two and then complain about not having enough work. Remember the saying "The early bird gets the worm". We are in a world where people want it now. They don't want to wait and they will pay more to get it now.

 

If I drew plans for other contractors I would work out a low cost deal to come in and draw a design with enough information that a contractor can come in and give an accurate bid on the project. This way a home owner doesn't have to invest to much and then find out they cant afford the work anyway. Many times Architects/Designers will sell a drawing to someone for thousands of dollars and by the time they get done with the drawing and it goes to the contractor for bid its way to much money and they cant afford the project. The architect is happy because he made his money but the customer then feels like they have been deceived and are very unhappy (no referral for that designer!) because of the money they spent. If you do a low cost design and the customer is happy with you and you help them to stay within there budget by warning them that the design is getting to complicated and the construction cost are rising then that is what I'm talking about. Being a servant and looking out for the person paying you. Not just to line your own pockets and run. As a contractor/designer this is easy for me because I know the cost. If you are a designer that don't really know construction cost then you need to find some contractors that you can partner with and come up with a strategy that will help you, him or her and the customer. I call that a win/win/win. Or a trifecta! If you can go to a contractor and tell them that you will get them business and it wont cost them anything they would be a fool not to listen to your plan. The hard part is getting the right people to work with that aren't greedy and that have some integrity. So put together a plan and when you put It together think about how you can best serve people and help them to get what they need at a reasonable cost. No gimmick or coupons just honest work for honest pay.

 

You Got Me Goin. Sorry to ramble

 

Joe

[builtright3]

Clarify last post,

I work mostly for the working class, young, to middle aged couples with one or two incomes that are growing their families and just need more space. Wealthier people with plenty of income can afford a full design without limitations. I have defined the group of people I work for. Some prefer the bigger projects.  

 

Joe

[Fun2Learn]

Thanks, Joe, for taking the time to explain. (Please don't apologize for "rambling"--I appreciate the explanation and it definitely wasn't too long or too much! The more info, the better!)I hadn't thought about the need to get the drawing done quickly  just so the contractor could get the job in the first place. You must have a pretty good eye for design. I imagine not all contractors do as well with the design end as the construction end (and judging by some of the poorly designed remodels I've seen - or ones that could have been improved greatly with just a little more thought and attention...but don't get ME going on that one, ha, ha!) 

 

I also see myself as primarily working on typical, middle-class type home projects, so I appreciate your feedback. I like helping average people on a budget improve their homes--I've already helped a few friends with additions and remodels. I think I can quickly look at a home and come up with ideas for improvements and additions---as a matter of fact, I consider it an "occupational" hazard that I have a hard time NOT mentally redesigning (or at least tweaking)  most homes I walk into anyway! 

 

So it sounds like you are saying that , in your construction "niche" market,  a main selling point for drafting services would be speed of providing a preliminary design plan, and someone to take the as-built measurements? Is that correct?  I would also like to provide design services--or at least help "tweak" the contractor's initial design, maybe.  So do you think then that there would be a market for this? I would think contractors, unless they really love designing and drafting (as you seem to do), would rather delegate that task out so they could concentrate on the construction end.

 

Thanks,

Phyllis

[JimmJames]

Hello "Fun2Learn",

 

Some real advise, if you would. I will get to your original question, how to start your business,...as an Architect.

 

I am a General Contractor in California. I have been licensed since 1979. # 375451.

Commercial, residential, I can build anything. I only say this in order to qualify my input.

I checked out different programs, Auto Cad, Auto desk Architectural. I am not proficient in any specific one, except Chief Architect. The reason being is that of all those I checked out, I decided to learn Chief. This is the best program for construction drawings, in my opinion.

 

Now, I consider myself, among other things, a professional Architect. The qualifications being the fact that I have done Architectural Drawings(Architect), and I have made money from them (Earned Money=Professional). I have added this Architectural services to my business for a reason. When things were terrible for the economy, ie, a few years ago, I thought that I might add this Architectural as an additional service. "All-In'One" package if you will.

 

Well, I have done several drawings, but I have five that I have submitted to different City building departments and obtained permits. That is the end goal of doing these drawings. Everyone I have charged, and made money. The end goal, right?

 

Now bear with me, I am going to give you advice, AND an example, of how I think you should proceed.

 

In my opinion, do not work for some company. The last client that I interviewed, asked if I can get the drawing done, I said that I charge $4,500, but an architect might charge $3,000. So if you can find one that will do it in the time frame that you need it, go with the Architect. Why do I charge more than an Architect? Because #1, I hate doing drawings. It is so redundant, so "anybody-can-do-it". So boring. In my opinion.

 

I love building, I love organizing, I love it when it all comes together. And most of all, I love the fact that I can "Duplicate" myself. I can hire a framer, an electrician, a plumber, etc, and make money off of them.

 

An engineer, an Architect, A Doctor, A Hair cutter person, , etc. cannot duplicate themselves. Their income is limited to what they can do in a certain time frame.

 

I have an in-law that is an accountant, she likes  her job. I cannot imagine it, 10 hrs a day, day after day. but some people are made that way I guess. Not me.

 

So as a final note, if you present yourself properly, you can do what I have done, when it comes to Architectural drawings. My latest drawings, a "one Page" bathroom alteration. $2,500. It took me about 9 hours. The only reason I did this drawing is because my son needed someone to draw the plans so that he can get the job.

 

Now if this is what you want, there you go. Right now, construction is doing great. You can get your foot in the door very easily.

 

I have an addition coming up. do you want to do the drawings form me? I can do the initial "as-built" and send them to you. Give you some information as what they want. You finish them, they pass City, you get paid. I can sell these al day long. Send the finish PDF, I print at this end, and all is good. let me know.

 

Oh, be careful of advise from someone who cannot make a living as a contractor. In my opinion. Just saying.

 

 

-Tom

 

 

 

 

 

[Richard_Morrison]

Hello "Fun2Learn",

 

Some real advise, if you would. I will get to your original question, how to start your business,...as an Architect.

...

 

Now, I consider myself, among other things, a professional Architect. The qualifications being the fact that I have done Architectural Drawings(Architect), and I have made money from them (Earned Money=Professional). I have added this Architectural services to my business for a reason. When things were terrible for the economy, ie, a few years ago, I thought that I might add this Architectural as an additional service. "All-In'One" package if you will.

-Tom

You can consider yourself whatever you want, of course, but unless you have an actual Architect's license issued by the State of California, advertising or selling "architectural" services (including using the phrase in your work), or calling yourself an Architect is illegal -- meaning a crime -- for which you could probably lose your contractor's license, too. Not a good idea.

[lbuttery]

Richard is correct

 

however, I made sure that my website had the words "using software by Chief Architect"

displayed at the bottom of every page

 

thus, when a potential client surfs the web they may find your site

 

but in the "about us" and the "services" sections I made it clear

I was a designer and NOT an architect

 

if they are looking for a designer they may contact you

if they are looing for an architect they may move on

 

if they did contact me and it became clear they needed an architect

I would recommend that they continue their search for one

and may even suggest a few recommendations

 

Lew

[TheKitchenAbode]

Agree, you need to be careful so as to not be accused of missrepresting yourself. There are some fairly rigid rules concerning particular words that may be construed that one has a particular Professional Designation. I am a Medical Doctor versus I provide Medical Services, a court would not deem it unreasonable that a person could assume that if you provide Medical Services then you are a Doctor. If on the other hand you stated Servicing Medical Doctors you would likely be ok. This however would only be the case if upon looking at your activities it was clear that you were not actually providing Medical Services under some form of disguise.

 

Graham

[RGWhite]

Good advice so far on the legal front here.   So let me weight in.  After over two hundred cases that i have been involved in let me give some advice that no one has mentioned.  First check your clients out.  I visit the clerk of the court to see if they have been involved in ligtigation before.  If they have (as a lot of judgements) then I walk.  I also do a credit check ($8)  Do you have good chemistry with them when you meet.  Have ever worked with a home designer before? Problems with them?Make sure everything is also in you and your husband's name and no real personal net worth.  A lawyer WILL NOT TAKE A CASE if there is no big money to have (normally).  A good contract written by an attorney outlining how to resolve issues (mediation).  Limits of financial obligation (return fees).  Finally pay an experienced contractor to look at the drawings and critique the plan for any problems.

I had one case go on for two years and ended up in federal court, the 9th circuit court of appeals.  Plaintiff spent $500,000 on legal fees the defendent paid $1.2 million and  lost.  That was one repair/remodel that really got out of hand!!!!

[DRAWZILLA]

Don't let all of this scare you, as they say, "Just do it"

[RGWhite]

Sorry if I scared anyone but if I know of some advise that could save anyone from a bad experience then I feel I am obligated to inform.  Like Perry says just do it and you will not regret it.  

[TheKitchenAbode]

Agree - take our comments as just something to take into consideration as you attempt to define your business, why repeat the pitfalls of others, learn from them.

 

There are many ways to stay clean and ethical in this field and be able to establish a viable, profitable and rewarding business. A simple example, for existing residential remodeling/additions and custom in-fill homes clients will be using an Architect, however most at this level provide more traditional drawings, plan and elevations. Many clients have difficulty in envisioning this space from a 2 dimensional perspective also, most Architects are not really interested in how the rooms layout will be from an interior design/decorating perspective. Clients come to us with their drawings and we work with them on this aspect. Now the client knows for sure that the kitchen can truly accommodate their appliance, cabinetry and functional needs. Better to confirm this before the walls go up.

 

Graham

[mrscott]

Question:

If your contract clearly states, and is signed by the client, that the plans provided are solely for the purpose of design realization, General guidelines for construction contractor, governing authorities, structural engineers, et al, and does not provide assurance outside this scope. Designer is held harmless for actual fit and function as these respective results are outside his/her control.

[lbuttery]

Scott:

 

disclaimers can hold in court

 

IF they are among parties of equal stature in knowledge, experience etc

 

IOW, while your disclaimer might as signed between designer and builder

it may not hold between homeowner and designer (or builder) as the "pros"

would be seen as taking advantage of the lowly homeowner

 

probably best to have any contracts reviewed by an attorney versed in construction law

to ensure the "strongest" disclaimer protection

 

I had very similar disclaimers between me and the builders

 

the builders had their own contracts with the homeowners

that I was not a party to

 

the few times I worked directly with homeowners, especially those who were acting

as their own GC's my contract stated that I was providing "training" only and the

homeowner signed and submitted the permits

 

also because as designers we were not allowed to sign or submit permit sets

had to be done by either homeowner or licensed builder

 

Lew

[mrscott]

So far I have not worked directly with builders. I do have an attorney reviewing and suggesting verbiage but as is typical they get very wordy and thus tryout to simplfy the contract. The may point is "Hold harmless clause". All my designs for the following process.

1) design accepted by the owner.

2) design submitted by owner to ARC

3) design submitted to Windstorm engineering firm for them to prepare, foundation, shear walls, truss loading, etc

4) design makes whatever adjustments to the plan requested by ARC and or Engineer.

6) builder selected buy owner

7) design and Engineering doc submitted to local and state authorities for permit approval by builder

Note: I base my fees on sq ft / package and provide all revisions up to the point where working drawings are finalized for permitting. After that point and changes are based on an hourly fee.

[TheKitchenAbode]

Question:

If your contract clearly states, and is signed by the client, that the plans provided are solely for the purpose of design realization, General guidelines for construction contractor, governing authorities, structural engineers, et al, and does not provide assurance outside this scope. Designer is held harmless for actual fit and function as these respective results are outside his/her control.

 

Just my personal thoughts. The first part is clear and concise, the following section concerning "General guidelines..." seems ambiguous and potentially subject to being misconstrued by a client. For example the term "guidelines" should likely be replaced with the term "information", guidelines could imply that the drawings meet some form of official requirements. I would not make any mention of specific groups that this information may be suitable for such as contractors, governing authorities, structural engineers. I would cover this by something like "the Client and/or End User of said information". Would not use the "does not provide assurance outside this scope", this implies that there are some form of assurances providing they are within a certain scope. The final statement should also refer to your company name.

 

I would as an example likely have something like this,

 

"Any and all Information provided by Seaisle Design Group Ltd. is for the sole purpose of design realization only. Seaisle Design ​Group Ltd. makes no warranty or guarantee as to the accuracy of any said Information such as but not limited to dimensional, material suitability, fit or finish, and a such it is the sole responsibility of the Client and/or End User to determine the suitability of any and all said Information for their intended purpose or use."

 

"The Client also understands that Seaisle Design Group Ltd. cannot be held responsible whatsoever for any consequences, disputes or action(s) that may arise from the use of said information, and the Client agrees, in the event that any action(s) legal or otherwise are taken, to hold Seaisle Design Group harmless and to indemnify Seaisle Design Group Ltd. for any and all costs that may be incurred as a result of any said action(s)."

 

Obviously this is only a rough example but it should provide some insight into this. Also, you should be aware that dependent upon your State or Country of operation that there may be statutes that you cannot over-ride by the inclusion of a waiver.

 

Graham

[mrscott]

Graham,

Thanks for the information. I am reviewing an earlier contract prepared by my attorney when I was engaged in a commercial project last year; which incidentally, the client refused to sign and thus I terminated the work performed up to that point. Since my focus is now only residential, Inwant to simplfy the document.

[Gawdzira]

I would add something similar to this:

 

"Design" has some side effects, as is common in most Designs, and these side effects could include drowsiness, dizziness, dry mouth, blurred vision, swelling of the feet or hands, increase in weight gain and problems with concentration. It is important that you refrain from operating a vehicle or any other heavy machinery when beginning Design. Other side effects could include a feeling of being "high" as well.

 

Good enough for Lyrica, good enough for me.