Understanding Annosets, Defaults & Layersets

[lbuttery]

Larry:

 

I get that a Layerset controls "what" is shown

 

anno-sets control "how" it is shown

 

thus, many layersets can use the same anno-set

 

it is also possible to have many anno-sets be set to use the same layerset

 

it doesn't have to be a one-to-one relationship

 

its important to have the needed layersets

having too many anno-sets can be "overkill"

 

Lew

[HumbleChief]

 

...is it also possible to have many anno-sets be set to use the same layerset

 Yes

 

Also Lew please remember I learned to use Anno Set when X3 first came out and there was a massive discussion on the best method(s). I adopted what we (the forum and the beta team) considered the best method then. Things have changed and I have not so I bet there many other methods that are much better or equally as good.

[Barton_Brown]

Larry, I like your approach. It makes sense and provides consistency from plan to plan. 

 

Regarding Lew's statement of many anno-sets using the same layerset - has this ever been an issue for you? My first reaction is that to avoid surprises if a layerset was changed that I would always want a one-to-one relationship between an anno-set and a layerset, rather than a many-to-one. It would mean more layersets, but I don't think this is a big issue for CA. I'm trying to think of what problems would arise with the 1:1 approach but they haven't occurred to me yet.

 

Thanks.

[lbuttery]

considered the best method

 

Larry:

 

sorry, I wasn't thinking "best"

 

I'm trying to understand why

 

sometimes "extra" is "simpler" to use

 

Joe and Scott need what they need and

it's best for them

 

it's not a one-size fits all

 

Lew

[HumbleChief]

Larry, I like your approach. It makes sense and provides consistency from plan to plan. 

 

Regarding Lew's statement of many anno-sets using the same layerset - has this ever been an issue for you? My first reaction is that to avoid surprises if a layerset was changed that I would always want a one-to-one relationship between an anno-set and a layerset, rather than a many-to-one. It would mean more layersets, but I don't think this is a big issue for CA. I'm trying to think of what problems would arise with the 1:1 approach but they haven't occurred to me yet.

 

Thanks.

 

Takes time to set up correctly and am constantly tweaking but once set up it's very consistent as you suggest.

 

I use a modified Save As Method as well, meaning I will save my latest plan every so often to preserve the Anno Sets and then apply that as a default template for new plans. It keeps the latest changes and current thinking re: Anno sets up to date.

 

And like you Barton I have found no issues with a 1:1 ratio of Anno to Layer Sets and I prefer it to avoid confusion for my fragile little brain. When I'm in the Framing Ceiling Anno Set I really only want one Layer Set to match and having a Layer Set for each Anno Set is not confusing at all.

 

If you can find an approach that works then the creation each new Anno Set and its associated Layer Set becomes very easy to set up and if you save that plan for future use every change has been preserved.

 

I still come up against an Anno Set that needs tweaking like arrows in a set that I seldom use will point to a layer that's very obscure but it's a simple fix and another save preserves that for the future so the change doesn't have to be made again.

[Barton_Brown]

Larry, thank you for taking the time to explain your approach!

[Gawdzira]

The reason that I make a new Anno set for "Rain Gutter Plan" is so that when I send the rain gutter plan to layout I know that my rain gutter notes are going to be on that drawing in layout and I will not have a stray arrow pointing to a downspout show up on my electrical plan or site plan or hvac plan or....

 

I use the Anno Sets and Layer sets like Larry. I am going to try and review the discussion regarding the layersets as king but for now, I believe in the anno sets as king. They were developed to be king based on very clear direction from the dominant users on the forum and from a construction documents stand point make perfect sense to me. To me, they are the individual sheets of Mylar.

[lbuttery]

my rain gutter notes are going to be on that drawing in layout and I will not have a stray arrow pointing to a downspout show up on my electrical plan or site plan or hvac plan or....

 

Alan:

 

just curious

 

wouldn't the layerset control which layers are showing ???

 

this is how I do it now and in the past - since I'm not using anno-sets

 

Lew

[lbuttery]

I believe CA's intent is

 

layersets control "what" is displayed

 

anno-sets control "how" it's displayed

 

1:1 ratio may be needed

but I'm hoping not

 

at least for the average user

 

Lew

[Barton_Brown]

So, to summarize what I think I've learned here - if we view this as a 'control' hierarchy and use Lew's terminology,

Anno-sets (the 'how') CONTROL Layer-sets (the 'what collection') which CONTROL layers (the individual 'what').
Or, stated in the reverse order, the content (the 'what') needs to be formatted (the 'how') to be displayed correctly.
The 'King' of the control hierarchy is the Anno-set.

OTOH, if you don't change Anno-sets, then Layer-sets become the control 'king' over layers.

 

If you want to take full advantage of all the formatting/display/control capabilities of CA, then you can use Anno-sets for the control/specification of the cad layer, annotation, and active layerset defaults.

 

At least, that is how I now understand this topic. AND, thank you to Joe Carrick for the pdf file that explained this much better and which started off this discussion.

 

EDIT: After doing the mental gymnastics to reach my 'understanding' above, I went back an re-read the posts in this thread. Amazing how what first appeared as gibberish now actually reads like an intelligent discussion :-) . 

 

As to Doug Park's original intended use of anno sets, the unintended consequences of letting users 'have their way' with an application is that a feature takes on a life of its own... And while Doug didn't intend for Anno-sets to be the control 'king', now that I think I understand how I can use them in a manner that makes sense to me, they will become my 'king' in controlling how things are displayed in layout.

[lbuttery]

Barton:

 

that is my understanding of what CA intended

 

Yet, for some their needs are greater

 

Lew

[HumbleChief]

The reason that I make a new Anno set for "Rain Gutter Plan" is so that when I send the rain gutter plan to layout I know that my rain gutter notes are going to be on that drawing in layout and I will not have a stray arrow pointing to a downspout show up on my electrical plan or site plan or hvac plan or....

This

[lbuttery]

Larry:

 

that can be done via a layerset

no need for a new anno-set 

unless the presentation defaults change

 

or 1:1 is "convenient" for you

 

Lew

[Doug_Park]

How vs. what is a really poor model. Layers control some of how as well as what.
 

Annotation sets control the defaults.

 

Let's go back to basics. I'm pretty sure many, hopefully most understand each of these concepts. If you do then you should be able to easily grasp the concept of annotation sets.

 

A default. This is a property of an object that you can set that is used when you create the object. It could the layer it is on, a text style, a size, or any of many other things. Using a default makes it quick to create a large number of items that share similar properies.

 

A dynamic default. This is a special type of default that if changed will change the value of all objects that refer to this particular default. Dimensions among other things use these for certain properties. When a dynamic default is in play changing the controlling source default value allows for a powerful, but potentially confusing, way of controlling how things work in a plan.

 

Saved Defaults. This is a collection of named defaults. One can select one of these and make it active. Overriding what was previously active. And then if you want another set of defaults to become active you can select that saved default as well. Selecting a saved default doesn't change the values of an object that has already been created. If the saved default represents a dynamic default that will not change the values of objects that use a different saved default.

 

A layer. A layer in Chief is similar to layers in traditional CAD programs in that they control the appearance of lines, color, style, weight, and whether they are drawn or not. By logical extension an object in Chief, including 3D, will display or not display based on the layer setting. Also there are a few other things, such as whether the object is locked, Text Style, and whether an item is generated to a material list that layers also control.

 

A layer set. This is simply a collection of layers that have a specific set of properties. For example a layer in one layer set may be on, while in another it is off. Or in one set the lines may be red while in another they are blue.

 

Current CAD Layer. This is the layer that objects such as lines, circles, etc. go on when they are created. Because these items don't have defaults this is a stand-in for CAD defaults. For the most part the layer controls the appearance of these objects.

 

Currently active defaults. This is the set of annotation releated defaults that are currently in effect. There is only ever one set in effect for a particular view.

 

Currently active layer set. This is the layer set that is currently being used. There is only ever one layer set in effect for a particular view.

 

Annotation set. This is a collection of items that set the currently active defaults for annotation related objects. They also have an option (option means not required) to select the currently active layer set. Recall that changing the active default doesn't affect the appearance of already created objects. Generally speaking annotation sets are designed to control how annotation type things, lines text, arrows, etc. are created. Once created they use the settings that were in effect when they were created until those settings are changed on the individual object, or in the layer they reference (possibly as the result of changing tha actvie layer set) or if they are using dynamic defaults they will pick up changes to the named dynamic default that they reference.

 

Views remember active defaults and active layer set. In any given view, floor plan, elevation, cad detail, layout, the currently active defaults are remembered along with the currently active layer set. This means when you switch to a view you normally don't need to select the annotation set or the layer set as the active defaults and and active layer set that were in effect when the view was last closed will be reinstated.

 

 

Annotation sets make the task of switching which saved defaults are in effect for several different objects a one step process. Also, for cases where you may need to change the current layer set, such as a plot plan or electrical floor plan, they can be used to change the active layer set.

 

If you don't use annoation sets the powerful fall back is to manually change the active saved default and possibly the active layer set. This is still a low click count operation. At the most a dozen or so clicks and possibly less if you only want to change the default for text.  Prior to having this switching defaults was a many click process that could be 100's of clicks and was very error prone.

 

Annotation sets and saved defaults are about saving clicks and reducing errors in setting up the defaults in preparation of creating annotations.

 

[HumbleChief]

Larry:

 

that can be done via a layerset

no need for a new anno-set 

unless the presentation defaults change

 

or 1:1 is "convenient" for you

 

Lew

 

As I've said multiple times I use the method I use because I learned it that way and find it way more than "convenient" to keep using the system that creates my livelihood.

 

As I understand your position Lew you do not use Anno Sets but are merely trying to understand how they are used? If that's true then I suggest you create a hundred plan sets then share your methods with us on the forum so we can learn another approach. It might be a solution but for me it's a solution looking for a problem I don't have.

 

It's very easy to suggest to a seasoned user to change their methods but a much different thing when those methods are ingrained and are used to create real world plan sets.

 

As an example your suggestion that I might use a Layer Set instead of a new Anno Set might work - for you - or many others, but for me to learn and then re-learn the fundamentals of what makes Chief work for me is a pretty silly proposition when the benefits are so small - again for me and the way I work.

 

What would I gain? - really - What would I gain? I'd spend hours re-setting up all my templates and Anno Sets and re-training my brain to look at Chief through completely new eyes and to what end? It wouldn't really be any easier, or it might be over many months of re-learning 'my' system.

 

On the other hand if Chief decides to change the way Anno Sets works then I'll adapt as I always have. Till then I'll use my existing system as there's simply no downside and no real 'problem' that needs fixing - again for me and the way I work.

[lbuttery]

Larry:

 

sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you change your workflow

 

that's why I added or 1:1 is "convenient" for you

 

I was just trying to clarify for any reading these posts now or in the future

that 1:1 is not "required"

 

Yet, I am also trying to understand why those who do have 1:1 are doing so

as maybe it is "the way to go"

 

 

as I understand it, anno-sets could disappear and CD's could still be created

as they were prior to X3

 

anno-sets just save clicks as Doug pointed out in his last post

 

layersets are "king" and anno-sets add "convenience"

 

maybe 1:1 is the most convenient way ...

 

Lew

[Barton_Brown]

How vs. what is a really poor model. Layers control some of how as well as what.

 

Doug, thank you for clarifying my misunderstanding about the 'how' and 'what' model. I accepted it without truly questioning it.

[lbuttery]

Doug:

 

yes, thanks for the explanations

 

this all goes way deeper than one would think

 

Lew

[zowie123]

Hi all, I'm confused about Annotation set defaults?   

 

So if  I choose the stock Electrical Annotations it changes Current CAD, Dimensions, Rich Text, Text, Callouts, Markers, Arrows and Layer Sets to Electrical CAD, Electric Dimensions..Electric Rich text, etc  

 

But Does one need to change all these items between Current CAD  and Layer Set?  Or... can I just change the Current CAD Layer and Layer Set and use 1/4" default for the rest?  Then edit the 1/4" Scale Attributes?  Does Edit change the 1/4" Scale defaults or does it somehow amend defaults on a unique level?  

 

I was on a roll creating a new template until I confused myself at the Anno set defaults:(

 

It seems there are videos showing both methods and I'm not sure why either is correct anymore--perhaps some sleep would help:)

 

Thank you, Barry

 

[Joe_Carrick]

Barry,

 

Annosets can be used for just scale related items (Rich Text, Text, Callouts, Markers, & Dimensions) by specifying "Use Active" for Current CAD Layer and Current Layer Set.  IOW, one Annoset for each dwg scale that you use. 

 

If you use it this way you will have to change the Layer Set and Current CAD Layer separately.

 

The other option is to have an Annoset for each scale for Architectural, Structural, Electical, Plumbing, HVAC, etc. and have the Annosets select the Current CAD Layer and the Current Layerset.

 

IMO, the Annosets should be used just for the sandard text size (1/8"  in my case) and possibly for different fonts.  Special Text Styles (Size and Font) for specific uses I relegate to the Layer Set individual Layer definitions. 

 

I do prefer to have one click to set everything and currently that can only be done in the Annoset.

[zowie123]

Thank you Joseph,

I get most of that and I also create anno sets for Architectural, Structural, Electical, Plumbing, HVAC, etc, mainly because I don't understand the complexities of the hierarchy within the system to know what's  affecting what.  I guess I will stick with the obvious for now, I was just wondering if the edit pen within the Annotation set defaults actually changes the actual defaults or the subset of defaults.  It seems there's several places one can edit hierarchies which adds to the confusion.  

Thank you, Barry

[Joe_Carrick]

Barry,

 

The Annoset is a set of Defaults.  When you select an Annoset, the Defaults for the Plan are actually changed.

 

It's actually possible to completely ignore using Annosets and define everything in the Plan defaults and in the Layersets.  Annosets simply makes it easier to change several Defaults in a single step.  The main reason for having Annosets is to adjust the sizes depending on  the scale of the drawing.  This is due to the fact that Chief defines annotation in Model sizes as opposed to print sizes. 

 

Assume that you use just one scale for Plan Views (1/4" = 1'-0") and your standard font is 1/8" Chief Blueprint then you could use a single Annoset for all Plan Views and control everything else within the Layer Set.  iw: Use custom Text Styles for individual Layers such as Room Labels, etc.

[Joe_Carrick]

So this morning's Workshop hosted by Scott was very informative - and in some cases contentious - but I think everyone learned a little something.

 

Here's what I now understand:

 

1.  Layer Sets can control all Annotations on an individual Layer basis by specifying the Linestyle, Color & Text Style.

     a.  In the case of Text Style the individual Layers can use a specific Text Style,or the Defauylt Text Style.

     b.  If the Layers specify " Default Text Style" then any Text created on that Layer will use the Current Plan Defaults.

     c.  If a specific Text Style is specified, Then changing that Text Style will modify all Text in the Drawing that uses that Text Style.

 

2.  Annosets specify a set of Defaults which include - in most cases - Layer, Linestyle, Line Weight, Color & Text Style.  In the case of Dimensions, there are additional settings and in the case of Rich Text there are fewer.

 

3.  Annosets can also specify the Current Layer Set and the Current CAD Layer - but those to can be set to "Use Active" which will result in no change when that Annoset is selected.

 

4.  There are several options for how to use Annosets, Layer Sets, and Text Styles.  Everyone seems to have their own preferences.

     a.  Select the Annoset which in turn selects the CAD Layer and Layer Set

     b.  Select Annoset and Layer Set and CAD Layer independently.

     c.  Let the Layerset control everything and modify Defaults separately

     d.  Some hybrid combination ??????

 

The general consensus seemed to be that it would be really nice if Layer Sets had the following options:

 

1.  Current CAD Layer (either a specific Layer or "Use Active")

2.  Annoset (either a specific Annoset or "Use Active')

 

This would allow the user to set up their system with either Layersets as KING or Annosets as KING. 

 

Most of the attendees seem to prefer using the Layerset as KING, but having the option of setting up our systems either way would in the long run satisfy everyone.

[lbuttery]

Joe:

 

nice summary

 

definitely not a "one size fits all"

 

sorta like the 6 blind men trying to describe an elephant ....

each has a different persepective

 

some users can go minimal and basically use Chief's OOB anno-sets

create as many layersets as needed and then add to chief's anno-sets as needed

many layersets to "few" anno-sets

 

others need extensive "systems"

where they have numerous layersets and probably a one-to-one matching anno-set

 

Lew

[zowie123]

Barry,

 

The Annoset is a set of Defaults.  When you select an Annoset, the Defaults for the Plan are actually changed.

 

It's actually possible to completely ignore using Annosets and define everything in the Plan defaults and in the Layersets.  Annosets simply makes it easier to change several Defaults in a single step.  The main reason for having Annosets is to adjust the sizes depending on  the scale of the drawing.  This is due to the fact that Chief defines annotation in Model sizes as opposed to print sizes. 

 

Assume that you use just one scale for Plan Views (1/4" = 1'-0") and your standard font is 1/8" Chief Blueprint then you could use a single Annoset for all Plan Views and control everything else within the Layer Set.  iw: Use custom Text Styles for individual Layers such as Room Labels, etc.

Thank you Joe, that's exactly the conclusion that my small brain was on the verge of solidifying.  Good on you mate, thanks again.