keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I have done plenty of plot plans via owner plats before, or official government survey records, but finally hit a brick wall. Not sure why this one is giving me so much trouble, s there is plenty to go on, I just can't get house to position correctly. There has to be a trick here I'm missing. The ordinate lines all work fine, as per attached plat. No issues setting up the property lines. Getting the house positioned is another story. Surveyor shows what I believe are three perpendicular distances, from ordinate lines to specific points on the corners of house. OK, seems straight forward, but to save my life I can not get all the pieces to set up correctly. That is, I can't get the house where surveyor says it is. The reason for the topic title is I can't find the starting point for the ordinate series without first having some idea of where any of the 5 points are on it. I can input lines from random points and get it drawn, but where is it, in reality I have no idea. Turning the plat changes everything. Moving the house messes up two specific walls on bay window of master bedroom. They are exactly correct now, but Chief wants to realign them and remove two very small direction change walls on the bay. Plan and Plat attached Ideas welcome. Thanks, Keith As Built.plan Plat 2.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbuttery Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Keith: the recommendation is to move the terrain/plot rather than the house the house front should generally be oriented to the bottom of the screen Lew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'd move whatever I had to, but can't figure out a way to do a point to point move on three positions at the same time? The problem is the perpendicular lines from lot lines (specific lengths to specific connections on house), need to essentially be simultaneously moved or you just turn and twist and back and forth, but never really get there. I get close, but not all three. I think it would have helped immensely if the surveyor had provided a ordinate from the house to a point somewhere on the lot line with a distance. But the house is not parallel to any of the lot lines, it's kind of twisted. Had a ordinate, and a distance say from back flat wall to either side been provided, it would be pretty easy to get that to work. I suspect there is some brilliant way to get this done, but I don't want to cheese ball it like trying to scale up the plat to measure out. I think there is a technique I just can't think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryT Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Your surveyor should have given at least a direction of one of the dimensions in the house detail. Since he did not, it's impossible to accurately locate the house, but you can get close. Just draw the three dimension lines parallel to their lot lines at the set distance. Then lock these lines and group select the house. You can then rotate and move the house so that the corners touch the dimension lines. Then delete the temp lines & add dims.Close by eyeball but never exact. Or if you prefer, select & rotate the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryT Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Now your starting to hurt my head. For those algebraically challenged like myself,how about a video? I'll bet it's still easier to do by eye with temp construction lines. One technique I have used - not here- was to draw corner lines and then measure & get the absolute angle between, then use rotate at that angle. Works well in some situations but in this situation, faster just to move and check as the dims are already there and no need to add a angle measurement. I'd like to see your method in action?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 A lot easier than I initially thought. First find distance from front left corner to back right where bay touches the line. This is your hypotenuse. Find ANGLE 1 of hypotenuse relative to verticle lines, you know the hypotenuse and the distance between vertical lines easy peasy Find ANGLE 2 of hypotenuse relative to back wall of house, you know the hypotenuse and you know width of house easy peasy Add ANGLE 1 to ANGLE 2 subtract from 90 degrees, you now have the angle of side of house relative to vertical lines. Once you know angle of house relative to the property line, the rest is easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzira Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 What I see is a hand drawn sketch of surveyors information. There is going to be inaccuracy with the hand done drawing. Since the survey has numerical information I would import the survey image, scale, rotate and trace. Even if the actual ordinate information of your cad lines is not perfect you are working in the spirit of what is required to define the site plan. Yours is an architectural drawing not a legal survey. Even when I get CAD from my surveyor the house lines are always different from my field measure. I trust my field measure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommy1 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 What I see is a hand drawn sketch of surveyors information. There is going to be inaccuracy with the hand done drawing. Since the survey has numerical information I would import the survey image, scale, rotate and trace. Even if the actual ordinate information of your cad lines is not perfect you are working in the spirit of what is required to define the site plan. Yours is an architectural drawing not a legal survey. Even when I get CAD from my surveyor the house lines are always different from my field measure. I trust my field measure. I agree on every word you say and would do it this way myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshall Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 My bad, I was assuming the vertical lines were parallel. I looked at site and they are not parallel. But the question still stands for me, can I figure out the angle of the house with the given info. Not sure. I do not think so. Yeah, the surveyer should of given a little more info if you want to be spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebdesign Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I imported the pdf & rescaled, traced over it. seems real close. Then played w/ it some. The pdf is on a separate layer so you can turn it off & see the CAD. Didn't really come up w/ anything different than anybody else. FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlackore Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Honestly, I would call Mark L. Perry, L.S., and put the question to him. A land surveyor (or whoever is out in the field working for him), should know enough to shoot both distance and azimuth (or at least bearing) from identified, established points. But, maybe he wasn't being paid to locate the house? In that case, you get what you pay for. Oops, my bad, I just noticed the "House Location Survey" text. I guess whoever paid for this definitely didn't get what they paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 What I see is a hand drawn sketch of surveyors information. There is going to be inaccuracy with the hand done drawing. Since the survey has numerical information I would import the survey image, scale, rotate and trace. Even if the actual ordinate information of your cad lines is not perfect you are working in the spirit of what is required to define the site plan. Yours is an architectural drawing not a legal survey. Even when I get CAD from my surveyor the house lines are always different from my field measure. I trust my field measure. Alan and Tommy, As far as I can tell, this is a legal survey for owner house purchase. Mind you that not pertinent information (neighbor name information) has been redacted, but otherwise wet sealed by surveyor. I may try to call surveyor. Scott, I guess I'm glad that it was not just me that could not wrap my head around this. The property boundary lines work out perfect, just not enough information for me to accurately place house, but like Gerry, I can get very close. I tried that technique and radius of cad circles from the house corners. I expect there is a some mathematical formula to get this triangle (essentially the three house points make up a known distance on all three sides) where is can (in theory) only touch the lot lines in one configuration. I think I need a CRAY computer, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 OK, This is not good news...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebdesign Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I would just locate the house best you can & YOU call out the info needed to locate the house.......w/ a disclaimer, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlackore Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I would suggest the Stafford County GIS mapping site. The lot ID is 17 45N, address is: 260 TACKETTS MILL ROADSTAFFORD VA 22556-5925 Two foot topo is available, and the site is pretty clear so the aerial gives you a good view. Do a print screen, overlay it in Chief, and you can get pretty darn close. The GIS measuring tools might help also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Robert, I had looked at the county GIS site and although interesting, is not accurate. See attached, where the south corner is measured (per GIS site) at about 15' from property line (red line added). Simply not the case here. The property line on the south side also shows straight on GIS, where in reality there is a pretty substantial turn from street to the north some 255' east up the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 It sounds like you are trying to do this in a plan view. Your case is exactly why something like this should be done in a CAD Detail window, using the Plan Footprint which you can drag around and rotate around a point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebdesign Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The pdf may look hand drawn but it is accurate. I resized it & it is very, very close. I forgot to "save in plan", so here is the plan again. Notice that the line length & bearing of the lines I traced over the pdf are very close to what is stated on the pdf. Of course, for real, I would ahve gotten them exactly correct, but ...just playin' here. As Built.plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Jim, Even with all layers on, there is nothing but the house footprint showing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLDrafting Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 The (3) measurements from the house corners are perpendicular to the boundaries. Offset ( copy parallel) the boundaries as noted. Move footprint to close approximation (snap nearest) and rotate from that point in adequate increments, checking (trial and error) until satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I still think there is a mathematical way to figure this out, with just information given, but I'm simply not smart enough to know how to do that. I hate losing to a dead, RIP, surveyor, who if still alive I would have considered killing. Will deny all of this in a court of law, if it turns out that Mark was murdered. It was not me. I have a couple of friends that are both MIT grads, so I will toss it at them and see if they got their moneys worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithhe Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 The (3) measurements from the house corners are perpendicular to the boundaries. Offset ( copy parallel) the boundaries as noted. Move footprint to close approximation (snap nearest) and rotate from that point in adequate increments, checking (trial and error) until satisfied. Jim, I tried that, but I think I screwed it up as I'm not good enough with the CAD lines to make it work. I tried to make a CAD block of the lot boundaries, with offsets, but could not get them to block together to do what you suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebdesign Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Keith, Are you looking in the CAD Details/Site Plan? The pdf is on a layer all by itself..........CAD, Plot Plan2. What Richard said in post #17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_Morrison Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Sorry, Jim, I see that you were already doing this. Looking at what you've done, I suspect that the surveyor's field measure of the setback was done to the corner of the bay, rather than the corner of the house; he just drew it wrong when he got back to the office. Rotate Jim's plan a tad to match the PDF, and the left corner is within .2' feet of the stated distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebdesign Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Not a problem Richard,. I keep forgetting that not everybody does their site plans in a CAD Detail w/ the plan footprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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