Cabinet face frame details

[Alaskan_Son]

In another thread Joe asked about how often we use 2D CAD tools which reminded me about something I've been meaning to ask for some time now. 

 

Do any of you draw up cabinet face frame details, and if so, how?

 

What I do now is model all my cabinetry like normal and then:

1.  Copy any number of cabinets and paste off to the side somewhere away from the rest of the model

2.  Change all the door and drawer fronts to "Openings", change the shelves in the openings to "Manual", and set the number of shelves to zero.

3.  Make a CAD detail from view

4.  Add my dimensions. notes, etc.

5.  Send to layout

 

This seems to be the fastest and easiest way but its still a little time consuming.  It would be nice if I were able to skip steps 1 and 2 somehow.  Maybe one for the suggestion section. 

 

Anyone have a better way?  The only step I think I could reasonably skip is step 3 but then dimensioning is a major pain.  Only drawback of course is that the CAD detail isn't live and so any changes to the cabinetry model mean running through the steps again or making manual changes to the CAD detail. 

[Joe_Carrick]

Michael,

 

I don't normally do those details.  Most cabinet suppliers have software that does this.  I have access to one that allows me to do custom face frames directly while preparing the order.  For standard modular cabinets I only have to specify the cabinet stock id and the overall dimensions. 

 

If I need something very specific that's going to be fabricated locally I would just work with the cabinet shop and have them provide shop drawings for approval.  Your method or a Cabinet Schedule with notes could provide them with a guide.

 

Maybe this would be a nice feature for a future version of Chief.  "Automatic Face Frame Detail".

It shouldn't be too difficult since all the dimensional data is in the Cabinet dbx.

 

I had posted a suggestion previously about being able to generate a Polyline using coordinate data contained in a Ruby variable.  If that was available the Face Frame Detail could be created very easily just using the Cabinet Attributes.  The only problem would be that Chief would need to provide more attributes --- currently they don't contain quite enough information. 

[Alaskan_Son]

We do a lot of custom cabinetry and our cabinet shop usually ends up drawing up their own shop drawings, however they draw those off the plans I give them and often times there are very specific face frame, shelf spacing, or opening requirements that I have and need to communicate to them.

[Joe_Carrick]

This would make a great suggestion for Chief.  Since you do this kind of detailing it would make sense for you to make it.  I'd be happey to help, consult on the suggestion if you want.

 

I think it's a great idea - especially for custom cabinets.  I would think that many of the KBD's would be interested as well.

[MarkMc]

I do exactly what you do, on the majority of jobs. (At least that is what I do since I upgraded from Interiors- back then I was exporting to CAD to do the dimensions)

Even my basic semi-custom brands will relocate rails or stiles; do appliance cutouts; and offer combined cabinets. Drawings are required by them at order submission for those things. I've never worked with a brand that does appliance cutouts who did not require a drawing for that. Now all still require calling out dimensions and all say that the written order overrides any drawings (cool huh?)

 

The issue for me is keeping it "live" to avoid ordering errors. I'd asked for the ability to snap to frame members in the past and would gladly support it.

I know it is possible at some level, 2020 will do it but it is harder to adjust the openings- one of the reasons I use Chief.

[Joe_Carrick]

This is what I get with my supplier's software as a "Face Frame Editor".  It will allow many different opening configurations, stacked, split, etc.  Any of the dimensions can be modified to suit the design.

[Dennis_Gavin]

I use semi-custom for pretty much all my cabinets and have never had a need to do those type of dimensions. What is the purpose of those dimensions? I can see for custom maybe but even then not every cabinet. Please enlighten me.

[Alaskan_Son]

Dennis, its difficult to explain exactly WHY we need to draw up face frame details because it can vary so much...

 

Probably make more sense to just show you a few examples.  I sort of freestyle these plans for the cabinet shop so they're not very consistent style-wise, however they get the point across.  

Borchardt island-Layout.pdf

Emerson Residence 7 Cabinet Layout.pdf

Heatwole Res. bath cabinet layout.pdf

[Alaskan_Son]

This would make a great suggestion for Chief.  Since you do this kind of detailing it would make sense for you to make it.  I'd be happey to help, consult on the suggestion if you want.

 

I think it's a great idea - especially for custom cabinets.  I would think that many of the KBD's would be interested as well.

Thanks Joe,

 

When I get a few minutes to thoughtfully write up a suggestion I'll do just that.

[MarkMc]

Dennis,

PNG is a page from a set in Showplace Wood Products- call themselves a semi-custom brand. Red text added to drawings that would be require. We always send them a set of drawings (pdf attached), that is not required but is encouraged just to help keep things clear.

 

I know you can't do this with some of the conglomerate semi-custom brands...yet. There are quite a few brands in that price range like SWP though.

 

[Alaskan_Son]

I should probably stress that what I'm taking about is for totally custom cabinetry not stock sizes or even semi-custom. 

[Alaskan_Son]

Dennis,

PNG is a page from a set in Showplace Wood Products- call themselves a semi-custom brand. Red text added to drawings that would be require. We always send them a set of drawings (pdf attached), that is not required but is encouraged just to help keep things clear.

 

I know you can't do this with some of the conglomerate semi-custom brands...yet. There are quite a few brands in that price range like SWP though.

It looks like you do something pretty similar to what I do.  The plans look a little different, but the basics seem pretty close.  I'm thinking that the ability to snap to multiple cabinet components and the option to put door and drawer fronts, shelves, and other components on their own layers might be the way to go.  I'll give it a little more thought and post a suggestion when I have the time.

[Joe_Carrick]

Understood, I imagine that it's much less expensive to fabricate locally than to have semi-custom shipped to Alaska.

  Interestingly, my "Face Frame Editor" allows me to do totally "Custom Fronts". 

[Alaskan_Son]

Understood, I imagine that it's much less expensive to fabricate locally than to have semi-custom shipped to Alaska.

  Interestingly, my "Face Frame Editor" allows me to do totally "Custom Fronts". 

Ya,  shipping is pretty expensive but there are a lot of other reasons too.  Semi custom brands wouldn't do a lot of the things we require, it would be much more difficult to communicate all the little intricacies and site conditions even if they would, if something shows up incorrect or broke we're waiting another 4 weeks for replacements, the list goes on.   Most people here still do order cabinets from the lower 48 though.  

[jtcapa1]

Wow. I had no idea that some of you guys got into that much detail with cabinets.  I've always just used CA for the basic layout, style and look, then let the Contractor, Owners work directly with the Cabinet supplier.  I guess that is why there are Kitchen and Bath designers.

[MarkMc]

It looks like you do something pretty similar to what I do.  The plans look a little different, but the basics seem pretty close.  I'm thinking that the ability to snap to multiple cabinet components and the option to put door and drawer fronts, shelves, and other components on their own layers might be the way to go.  I'll give it a little more thought and post a suggestion when I have the time.

Pretty much.

I'd like doors and drawers on one layer, shelves on another, accessories ...well Chief doesn't really do those so I'm already putting them on a layer of their own.

 

I understand you are using local custom. I wanted to emphasize what is gotten to be available in semi-custom to show the need for this kind of thing. Looking through your drawings only a few things I couldn't get SWP to do- P-42 Details 5 and 6 -112-3/4" is larger than they will do a combined and they wouldn't do a 45" opening (pocket hole construction so I wouldn't ask for it anyway), the stainless shelves we'd aftermarket and the false bottom would be field done.

 

But if I went up a line to a brand that I consider upper semi (or sorta almost custom) they would do all that.

In recent years several semi custom companies (Shiloh, Showplace, Brookhaven, Elmwood, Holiday, Ultracraft, Bertch, Cabico, Jay Rambo, Wellborn...)  have or added enormous capability. 

Many of the upper semi-almost custom and some full custom brands (Dura Supreme, Crystal, even Rutt) have added lower priced lines to get back market share. Since they already had the capabilities for modifications those are often included and trickle down into the lower priced line with consumer pressure.

 

 Most of the KD's I know are not very technically inclined ("CAD? what? kill a chicken, whirl around in a circle, then set it on fire just to get a drawing for an order...where's my pencil)

 

Chief looking to snag market share in the kitchen cabinet world this will be increasingly needed.

 

As it stands now it would give them an edge, especially with the better brands and full custom-local or otherwise. A number of the upper end custom cabinet brands (QCCI, Signature to name two) have completely stopped offering catalogs for 2020. Most brands at that level require full set of plans, elevations and details to process an order.

 

In another thread someone said "Chief isn't cabinet design software"- I disagree. Unless you are building them yourself and need cut sheets it is the best thing out there, it is so close to being THE solution- just a few tweaks. The pervasive move to online ordering can only help it (so long as they grab share before online systems incorporate non 2020 design software as one brand I work with is attempting)

[Dennis_Gavin]

I guess it really has more to do with custom lines/designs. A lot of the items are basically installation notes<br />Being a contractor who designs and oversees the installation I don't feel the need to be so heavily detailed on the plans I can see how for others in their capacity there is a greater need to detail.

[ShaneK]

MarkMc, very nice pdf print you posted. Detailed, easy to read and pictures for those who think they read the print. lol

[Alaskan_Son]

Dennis,

"Installation notes" and construction/fabrication details are one and the same for us as our cabinet builder does most of our installations as well. That being said, it still doesn't alleviate the need for face frame details.

For example, take a look at the first plan I attached (Borchardt). That was an 8 foot long island built in one piece with custom stile and rail placement and widths. How else would you communicate that?

There were similar details in the other plans I attached which is why I chose them.

I understand that the vast majority of people don't need to show those kinds of details, however for those of us who do I was just wondering if anyone found a quicker way to do so. Most specifically, a way to keep it live.

[Dennis_Gavin]

Michael - I completely understand for custom cabinets. And I can appreciate how many could benefit from expanded ability in Chief to do what you and others are asking.

[MarkMc]

Dennis- I oversee them all, they are not in house though. Like most things I do it for self preservation, on site 6-10 times, even do layout with them. Thing is I'm not there all the time.

Gets so I have to add more and more information, simply amazes me what happens if it is not both drawn and written down.

The pdf I posted is what we send for cabinets, for the contractor there is always at least another page often more. Even includes the obvious-install plumb and level, adjust all doors and drawers, all fillers or extended stiles to be scribed, dimensions listed for fillers are nominal VIF...it's gotten silly.

 

Michael -I too have been looking for something "live" with no joy.

 

I had a thought and just did a quick test. It's not live but provides a way to check the CAD against a live elevation.

I set the undo preference temporarily really high (though help says up to 10 so not sure) Then:

• Went to an elevation and changed each door and drawer to opening (individually of course) I already had defaults set for no shelves and no countertops (otherwise the schedule shows 36" high cabinets-whatthe...)
• Did detail from view. Selected all of that and copied it.
• Then used undo until all the cabinets where back to where they should be.
• Created a new blank cad detail and "paste hold position"
• Changed all the lines to red-set at front of front group
• Added dimensions and set both-set that at front of front group (probably should change the color there too but those are on a seperate layer) 
• All this is on a layer I use for such things so can be turned off.
• Copied the entire detail and went back to the elevation used "past hold position"

I now have an overlay on a layer that can be turned on/off/locked to check against the live model before ordering.

If it has to be altered slightly the model layers can be locked and lines moved.

If it is way off at some point it becomes a complete redo

 

Not the best solution for sure but only slightly more work than what I was already doing and I'm thinking it is safer...until we get a change to snaps and showing doors (X???)

I'm going to make a few adjustments to annosets and try this out on a job or two to see if it's worth the hassle.

 

A note- I mentioned that 2020 will snap to rails and stiles BUT it will not show the cabinets without doors. Nothing that I know of does that, (maybe CabinetVision?)