General Design Dilemma


blakel39
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Larry, It seems to me that a door from a bath to a kitchen was not code, but it could have changed, not sure. Just something I have remembered since birth.

Once upon a time, long, long, ago.

 

I don't know of any such code today - but ti's a really cr***y thing to do. 

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........I was not too concerned about the design program, it was more about the final product.  Living on an Island where pretty much everyone either knows you or knows of you............a good or bad design can make or break you............As it stands, I think I've stayed true to myself, whilst still providing her with a service.  I guess the lesson for me is even after 5 years of design studio and a B. ARCH no lecture or professor could have warned me about this.  And I guess the lesson for you all is that even in Paradise design can be stressfull! :D  :P  (see attachment - view of the triangle :D )

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Blake - I really miss Bermuda.  Went there on a cruise many years ago and the only bad part was the cruise.

Swore next time I would fly there.  On the cruise when everyone was gorging themselves on the buffet I saw the

help fishing with hand lines off a "porch" below decks and wished I could go down and have a beer and fish with them.

The stay on Bermuda was too short because of the time it took to boat there but what time I was there I loved.

You be a lucky guy!  ;o)

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attachicon.gifBackdrop2a.jpg

 

 

 

........I was not too concerned about the design program, it was more about the final product.  Living on an Island where pretty much everyone either knows you or knows of you............a good or bad design can make or break you............As it stands, I think I've stayed true to myself, whilst still providing her with a service.  I guess the lesson for me is even after 5 years of design studio and a B. ARCH no lecture or professor could have warned me about this.  And I guess the lesson for you all is that even in Paradise design can be stressfull! :D  :P  (see attachment - view of the triangle :D )

Well done Blake, it really is about what works for each one of us.

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I suggest you present the best possible options to satisfy the customer and protect your reputation. I'm not sure if you are a Professional Engineer or Draftsman, big difference in expectations. If you are not and Engineer ask the client to hire one, otherwise the client is the Engineer.....I get release of liabilities signed if I feel threatened for errors and omissions legally as in health related issues the client is generating which is not clear in this thread.  

 

"guest WILL hear and smell the occupant"

 

Are you talking about human waste? If this is human/ergonomics and/or mechanical Engineering you first need to define the exact problem with values. What DB, what level of sound dampening are you wanting to resist? There are also ways to mitigate and reduce odors passively and actively. Post options of CFM/DB values or have you done that research? What manufacturer are you making assumption by? When will the client use the fan and will it actually bother them? 

 

 

"I've tried to explain to her that the noise of a 600 cfm vent in the living room is unpleasant"

 

Where are you getting your statistics from not that it matters, only the clients opinion matters if it is a custom. Again, lack of data. Same as above. Open floor plans with kitchen/living great rooms are popular here. Whether they have a window in the kitchen is irrelevant since it gets too cold in winter to open it and air does not remove alot of odors that attract to certain mass because the surfaces of the room are not Engineered correctly. 

 

The other data this thread is missing to give good advice is a floor plan, section cuts, etc... 

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I am not a "Fan" of baths or powder rooms opening off of Living, Dining or Kitchen.  However, with modern open concept plans it's not always possible to avoid what would otherwise be an objectionable location.  This is particularly true with powder rooms.

 

If a good quality (low sones) fan is installed (connected directly to the light switch) and a good solid door is used there is little possibility of hearing or smelling anything.  I use this as a standard for all areas/rooms containing a toilet, tub or shower.

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If there are a few questionable design choices I usually take my name off the border of the plan. If there are a number of really, really bad ugly ideas the following could happen as it happened to me a couple times before I had the ability to recognize it coming and pass on the job.

If you continually give them what they want ignoring all sense of design (and common sense) like a 4,000 sq. ft. 4 bedroom home with one bath, or an attached garage with no access directly to the house without going outside etc. Eventually they are either going to smarten up and realize how ugly it is or someone will let them know how bad it is. They will go to another designer or architect badmouthing you about your horrible ideas to whomever will listen.

Remember the customer is the designer when it comes out great but you're the designer when it is butt ugly and not functional. Don't believe me? Just ask the customer.......

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What's ugly is very subjective, I might just love your ugly stuff.

True. The entire darn thing is subjective. Every part of design is subjective. Every color. Every shape. Every style.

 

If I, as a designer claim it's ugly, then what? It's automatically and absolutely ugly because I as a designer proclaim it as such? If it doesn't fit my exact picture of what 'good design' is (which never has, and never will be defined) then it's bad design?

 

But wait I have a license to design (I don't, thank god) therefore when I say it's ugly, it's ugly. Look, the design rules are right here in this book. If you break them, I won't be a part of this design any longer.

 

I say break them all if it gets the client what they want.

 

How about Frank Geary? Simply the ugliest, most atrocious architecture I have ever seen. Subjective. Did he have his clients sign off so someone wouldn't get mad at him and his designs later? Did he worry about some rules written by those who were afraid to break them?

 

Lighten up. I think the real 'danger' of bad design is in our minds not in the real world. If I had a client who didn't like what I gave them, after giving them what they want, they might bad mouth me to their friends but that's just the way I want it - I don't want to work for a psycho or the friends of a psycho.

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I had a situation recently where I felt that a particular design altenative was much better than the one the owner had chosen.  I simply told her my honest opinion, and that once the project was completed then everyone is a critic.  She thanked me for being honest, and for respecting her right as an owner to choose for herself.  There are a lot of reasons why I still like my idea better, but that, as they say, is history.

 

Years ago I framed a house for some folks that had been living in a trailer for a period of time before they built their new home.  Because of their experience of having lived in the trailer with walls so thin that there was next to no sound deadening they decided to insulate each and every interior wall in their new home. 

 

The home was on a concrete slab since the owner was a retired concrete contractor and did that phase of the project himself.  The part of this story that applies here is that when the mechanical contractor showed up to run the overhead ducting he ran a single duct that opened both into the guest bath next to the toilet, and straight through into the greatroom.  Needless to say that when the toilet was flushed it was rather loud and could be heard thoughtout the house.

 

Edit: BTW the general contractor, who also prepared the plans for these folks had been known to work up his designs on the back of envelopes.  Back in the day you could get by with that a lot more than you can today.

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I've built houses for people who basically gave up under the pressure of an architect/designer who had to impose their design ideas upon the client. It was one of the saddest experiences I had as a builder.

 

We would say, "Are you sure you want that there?" They would shrug their shoulders and say, "No, but the Architect said so."

 

Vowed I would never be a part of that type of relationship.

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I find this thread interesting since I am in the same situation...

 

Here in corporate America and in many parts of the industrialized “efficient” world nobody “owns” a design and nobody is solely responsible for its outcome, especially drafters. Since the creation of Integrated Products Teams (IPTs) over a decade ago, Engineering designs have many internal and external clients, customers, not just the end user. I think they figured out long ago no one person can not effectively design, knows it all, regardless of their ego, so in the “Design_Build Team” camp production efficiency and recurring cost prevails, given other requirements are met (IE: Structures, codes, specs, etc). R&D non-recurring cost takes back seat since it is short lived. Good thing the days of unqualified Engineers and drafters making build decisions and having never built anything to speak of are gone. I think that issue is more of problem in the home building industry than any I have ever seen. Ironically, I still work around corporate types that like to try and make decisions builders or trades should make, or clients…that is when things really get screwed up!  

 

In large corporate production several names end up on the drawing(s) including Operations or Manufacturing, several Engineering types, a drafter does the modeling and drawings and ends up in the “drawn by” block, although not always, some Engineers can draw faster than they can explain. That’s  why I try and keep up. I use CA and other CAD/CAM as one of my tools to communicate but, it does not do my designs I do and the rest of my team.

 

More applicable to production builders than one-off but, the concept of satisfying many, not only the end user (client) but also downstream users (trades) remain the same. I am constantly asked to put my name on drawing’s I do not fully agree with nor did I design in whole.  If I spend too much time debating with internal or external clients that is when my reputation gets tarnished, if I suck it up and make it work that is when it gets better. They present the challenge, whether I agree or not, I reach into my tool box and make it happen within my constraints (code, etc). My reputation gets ruined if my tool box is not full of tools. In this case, it is going to take more than opening windows, whole house attic fans, and geometry to satisfy the design, internal/external clients. 

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Interesting situationn you are describing.  What this reminds me of is the I Ching with it's hexagrams with one strong line at the top and all other lines yeilding.  Also it's counterpart with one yeilding line at the top and all other lines being firm or unbroken.  The stong line at the top is the power structure of the army.  One commands and all others follow,  which is also the model of our modern day Project management scheme that has it's roots in the later parts of WWII.  The topmost yeiding line represent creativity or beauty while capturing the talent of a variety of skilled craftsmen.

 

Sounds like you are tasked with dealing with both strong minded creative individuals as well as having to conform to a rather rigid overarching management scheme or power structure.  Like I said, interesting.

 

One thing I seem to be running into more often now that my ray traces are getting much more realistic and real time is that customers are becoming much more involved in the design process than they ever were before.  For the most part I like it, but there are times when it gets more difficult to navigate when customers choices and egos get involved.  So far so good though, at least as far as the customers getting what they want is concerned, and that is very important to me. 

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Rod, I'm referring to a multi-billon dollar project I am on and the difference between it and the $350, 000 home I am designing. The concepts are the same tho or should be....

 

The client usually a BOD has professionals write "requirement documents" for all systems and structures that have to be satisfied. Different than a home builder or Architect would get, rather alot of back and forth. We just heard word from the client that they feel the structures and systems are not being integrated or is not visible enough to prove that it is, and the customer asked for a status on how their requirements are being met at a "Preliminary Design Review" (PDR). Now there is a push to develop a "Integrated Master Schedule" (IMS) vs separate structures and systems, dah! The prime structures contractor hired a sub for the systems designs. No different than large commercial building's or can be done internal if they have the skill sets and can keep them employed long. At the PDR it is expected to show cost and schedule, a recovery plan if off, and if requirements can not be met one better know what they are talking about in front of some sharp individuals or they can really look bad. There will be a CDR (Critical Design Review), lots of peir reviews before it ever goes to production then there will lots of sustaining drawing revisions. 

 

Internal customers - Just today I was designing a HVAC welded tube assemble that met the structures and mechanical loads so I chose some wall thicknesses I thought would work. Well I'm not that good at welding aluminum so I got input from the welder and the thickness changed to dissipate the heat better. If I had done it my way like back in the day and throw it over the fence to get built like it or not,  we'd probably get some bad welds and scrap some parts since they have to pass non-destructive testing. There are some stupid Engineers that think they are too good to talk to people in the shop or on the site. I was on a multi-million dollar job recently I did not design but managed the production. The Arch never went and got any input from builders and rarely visited the job-site. Cost over runs a couple of mil last I heard ( i left for a larger project), in part from a bad design lack of team effort design I made the client aware of. That Architect I imagine he will never use again.  

 

"One commands and all others follow,  which is also the model of our modern day Project management scheme that has it's roots in the later parts of WWII. The topmost yeiding line represent creativity or beauty while capturing the talent of a variety of skilled craftsmen"

 

Well stated, I agree! :)

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Speaking of architects / engineers / designers not being in touch with the real world......I read this article yesterday.  It's quite interesting.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment

 

Of course it would have to triple in cost to even come close to Boston's "big dig" but it's a start.

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