Let's PBR

[HumbleChief]

VERY VERY nice tips you guys. Really appreciate the effort and expertise you are lending to this new art form...I'm sure it will come in handy in the future.

[TheKitchenAbode]

PBR Higher Levels of Reflection & Gloss

 

Here is a technique to obtain higher reflectivity and gloss.

 

PBR of counter top using a general material with roughness=0. Ok but not great.

 

After the technique. Much better.

 

I changed the counter top material property to "Predefined Metal", "Aluminum", "Brushed", U Roughness = 10%, V Roughness = 15%. Vary the V & U roughness settings to get the degree of reflection/gloss you desire.

 

When you do this you will need to use the "Texture", "Material Color", "Blend with Texture" and lighten it's color. When you change to a metal it will automatically darken the material.

 

Note, this will not work on bright white solid materials such as the cabinet finish.

 

Also, keep in mind that there needs to be other things around and proper lighting, if there is nothing to reflect then there will be no reflections.

 

[AlvarD]

12 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

PBR Higher Levels of Reflection & Gloss

 

Here is a technique to obtain higher reflectivity and gloss.

 

WOW Graham, this, and your light shadow depth control techniques are very creative AND very useful. Thanks for sharing them!! 

 

-Alvar

[rispgiu]

3 hours ago, Renerabbitt said:

Surprisingly difficult question to answer for me. I could go on for hours. Normals aren't always the best solution, bumps can be far superior at times depending on the situation. In general, I prefer Normals maps for wall materials with direct overhead lights, and bump maps for indirect light, the inverse being true for floors. But it varies scene by scene. 

Normals and bumps are meant to bring out recesses or protrusions in a material to give the look and feel of multiple materials. examine the material effect you are going for and make a calculated decision. often times(in the case of countertops) I use a completely different file as the basis of my roughness maps...remembering that chief doesn't have modifiers for scale. Whatever the scale of your primary texture in reference to the image files resolution will be the ratio for scale of your other maps

Here's a good example of a floor map with some additional options in final look:

diffuse map:

bump map: 

roughness maps: 

normals maps: 

Thank you Rene,

I can see why it is a more complicated question to answer and I appreciate you taking the time. 

 

Do you use all of those per material ? Or depending on the material you chose which route to go?

[rispgiu]

3 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

I don't use normal maps as of yet, still trying to fully understand them. The scene I just posted uses bump maps on the stool fabric, stool wood legs, backsplash tiles and hardwood flooring. For the bump map I just copy the texture source file from above and paste it into the bump map box and adjust the scale, seems to work just fine. Bump maps are sensitive to the camera angle and the angle at which light strikes the object, as such if your lighting does not vary much then the bump effect will not be noticeable.

 

So far from what I have read is that bump maps are best for finer details like fabrics while normal maps are designed for soft flowing variations such as waves in a blanket.

 

Other than that I'm going to leave this to Rene, far more experienced and knowledgeable than I.

Thank you Graham,

That is also the same approach I had been using. 

[AlvarD]

After reading thru the posts in this thread and applying some of the tips and techniques shared in it, I thought I would post three pics showing the results of adjusting lighting and materials on a kitchen using PBR, not because they are great examples of PBR renderings, but to show what a difference some minor changes can make. I also wanted to thank all the people in this CA community which are so generous with sharing techniques and tips, as well as provide helpful critiques, to help a rendering newbie like myself learn come up to speed quicker. To me, CA is a very good program, but what really makes it great is the CA community helping each other in the Chief Talk forums! 

 

The first pic is the basic render using the pendants, recessed, and under-cabinet light, with no sunlight. 

 

With some added area lights and sunlight. 

 

With material changes using some of Graham's techniques for the floor, counter-tops, cabinets and bar stools, as well updating the texture and bump map for the subway tile. Also changed the temperature of the sun and lights to warmer tones. 

 

 

-Alvar

[TheKitchenAbode]

Alvar - Nice examples of how impactful the lighting is. I'm also certain you found it easier to tweak/adjust the material properties once the lighting has been reasonably balanced. 

[Ridge_Runner]

Nice, Alvar. I'm curious - what did you do to dramatically improve the stainless in the wall ovens and the fridge?

[AlvarD]

21 minutes ago, Ridge_Runner said:

Nice, Alvar. I'm curious - what did you do to dramatically improve the stainless in the wall ovens and the fridge?

I changed the material to a "Predefined Metal", "Stainless Steel", NOT Brushed (so it's more like a Polished metal), and set the roughness to 15%. 

[Ridge_Runner]

Thanks.

[TheKitchenAbode]

PBR Higher Levels of Reflection & Gloss (cont'd)

 

Been evaluating this a bit further. Seems that the reflections are primarily associated with the Sun, actual light fixtures do not seem to be a significant contributor to this effect.

 

In these PBR's I have cranked up the sun, to avoid overexposure the Camera Exposure is trimmed back. I'm using the Generic Sun, it's angle and direction are important and needs to be adjusted so the reflections show up on the desired surfaces. The backdrop image is also important as it's colour and brightness will be a contributor to the effect. Keep in mind that as you crank up the sun you will also need to crank up the Lumen level of your light fixtures. In these samples the recessed cans are around 2,500 lumens.

 

In these PBR's the sun is around 400,000 Lux.

 

[rispgiu]

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

PBR Higher Levels of Reflection & Gloss (cont'd)

 

Been evaluating this a bit further. Seems that the reflections are primarily associated with the Sun, actual light fixtures do not seem to be a significant contributor to this effect.

 

In these PBR's I have cranked up the sun, to avoid overexposure the Camera Exposure is trimmed back. I'm using the Generic Sun, it's angle and direction are important and needs to be adjusted so the reflections show up on the desired surfaces. The backdrop image is also important as it's colour and brightness will be a contributor to the effect. Keep in mind that as you crank up the sun you will also need to crank up the Lumen level of your light fixtures. In these samples the recessed cans are around 2,500 lumens.

 

In these PBR's the sun is around 400,000 Lux.

 

Great work Graham, I suppose the frustrating thing about all of this is that when we think we got a work around with PBR they'll launch updates and everything will change once again. 

[Renerabbitt]

2 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

PBR Higher Levels of Reflection & Gloss (cont'd)

 

Been evaluating this a bit further. Seems that the reflections are primarily associated with the Sun, actual light fixtures do not seem to be a significant contributor to this effect.

 

In these PBR's I have cranked up the sun, to avoid overexposure the Camera Exposure is trimmed back. I'm using the Generic Sun, it's angle and direction are important and needs to be adjusted so the reflections show up on the desired surfaces. The backdrop image is also important as it's colour and brightness will be a contributor to the effect. Keep in mind that as you crank up the sun you will also need to crank up the Lumen level of your light fixtures. In these samples the recessed cans are around 2,500 lumens.

 

In these PBR's the sun is around 400,000 Lux.

 

side note, the grain in the cabinets should be done with a roughness map instead of a bump or normals map

[TheKitchenAbode]

36 minutes ago, Renerabbitt said:

side note, the grain in the cabinets should be done with a roughness map instead of a bump or normals map

 

Agree, would be interesting to see how other maps would work. I just copied the texture map into the bump map box, so it's not even a true bump map.

[AlvarD]

5 hours ago, rispgiu said:

Great work Graham, I suppose the frustrating thing about all of this is that when we think we got a work around with PBR they'll launch updates and everything will change once again. 

Nice work indeed Graham!  As Giuseppe points out, a lot of this can change with the next release, but I do hope that they have listened to some of the issues in this thread with PBR and improve it's usability for X11. Graham, I especially like one of your suggestions of letting the user control whether the PBR render updates automatically when any changes are done, or on demand. For those of us who are still seeing 10s-15s delays in PBR rendering whenever we change anything, due to not having the latest and greatest HW, this would be a great help! 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Thanks Alvar - The rebuild for every single change becomes frustrating for sure, even though I upgraded my graphics card it still takes 2 - 3 seconds before I get my cursor back. They have this option in the Adjust Lights DBX so hopefully they can also have this type of option when making other changes while working in an active PBR view.

 

I made some additional changes to the posted wood kitchen. As per Rene's suggestion I adjusted the bump map for the wood grain, not perfect but better. I also made some material adjustments to the glasses in the right decorative cabinet unit, think the glass is looking much more realistic. Played with the island pendants to make them look better.

 

So far I'm curious as to how far the current engine can be pushed towards the goal or realism. I'm reasonable satisfied with the lighting effect even though it can be a bit tricky to deal with shadow intensity. At this stage I believe the main issues relate to the material properties and the quality of the available models within CA. Many of the models are just too basic and no matter what you do they will never be convincing. Will hunt around for some better models to further decorate this scene and see how it goes.

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Here is the result after adding additional furnishings and decorative elements. All models are CA with the exception of the Edison light bulbs in the island pendants which are from 3D warehouse.

 

 

[AlvarD]

28 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

Here is the result after adding additional furnishings and decorative elements. All models are CA with the exception of the Edison light bulbs in the island pendants which are from 3D warehouse.

 

Another great render Graham!  It's amazing what a difference the furnishings and accessories make. With all that wine, I'm looking for the half-filled wine glass that you had in one of your other kitchens...lol  I really liked that, and I wish I knew how you did it... 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Thanks Alvar - Yes adding additional content really helps to pull it off, just a challenge to find models that are sufficiently detailed. From a lighting perspective there is only the sun, recessed lights, pendants and undercabinet lights. I only have two 3D area lights to lighten two areas where the regular visible lights provided poor coverage. Materials are all standard with just a few adjustments for sheen level and color.

 

Great suggestion concerning the wine, will go get that glass and add it in.

 

I'm more than open to any suggestions others may have as to additions and tweaks to push this even further. As mentioned, I'm very interested in seeing how far this PBR can be pushed towards realism, once completed I would be more than pleased to send each commenter the final plan for their own use.

[Kbird1]

It's starting to look really nice Graham and I am sure it has taken alot of time and "fiddling" to get there , it's just a pity that only someone with your experience and knowledge will ever get this out off CA.

 

2 things I did notice is the weird reflection in/on the end of the Island , down low, in both pics and the "splash of pink" behind the hanging Wine Glasses , which on looking further is a Sunlight reflection I think? , looking at the Wall cabinets either side of the sink on the other side of the room.

 

I looked for the 1/2 empty glass too   but also your Trademark Stand Cake Mixer ...though I think it might be hiding in the corner by the Wall Oven..

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Thanks Mick. Yes, I'm spending a lot of time as I'm still exploring what does what. However, much of what is being done is reliable and reproducible, hoping that this will result in some fairly easy to replicate procedures that will make it much easier to achieve this type of result.

 

Agree with your observations and yes that splash of pinkish is due to the sun in combination with the backdrop. Will likely change the sun angle slightly so it does not interfere with the glasses.

 

The other items I'm not happy with is the glass in that decorative cabinet, glass front on the wine cooler and the glass table top They lack any reflections that one would normally expect. Of all the materials, glass seems to be the most difficult. For the hanging glasses, which I'm reasonable pleased with, I changed the material properties to General, changed the color to a grey scale, about 80%, roughness=0, transparency about 70% and I added a very slight bump map which seemed to enhance the reflectivity. This seems to work fairly well providing the surface has a curvature, it's when the surface is flat that it gets difficult to get any reflections.

[Kbird1]

Great , can't wait till you publish your Tutorial with all the reproducible settings   perhaps CA should pay you to do that so they can Publish it in the KB ..... every scene is different though and that will always be the tough part...it at the pint where PBR is getting to be as much work as RT's were.... the feedback is just a bit quicker.

 

Glass Reflections of any kind in PBR seem to be a Issue , have been from the start and I have not had much luck in the limited playing I've done with it either.

 

I realise now going full screen, the weird reflection seen against the Island is actually the glass Tabletop , did you add a bump map to it? to get reflection, as it almost looks "dimpled".

 

for some reason my attention keeps coming back to the puck lights in the glass cabinet above the Wine glasses , not sure if you had to crank them up for some reason?

 

don't get me wrong , I think a Client would love to see a Pic like this......

[TheKitchenAbode]

Yes, the glass table top does have a slight bump map applied. Those cabinet pucks need to be altered, I think that's due to the bloom in combination with probably to high an emissive setting on the cans lens.

 

Please do not apologize, I want to know how things look through more than my eyes.

 

Thanks,

Mick

[AlvarD]

Graham, a while back you took the plan that I was using to practice the exterior PBR renders and added some landscaping and did a night time render, which I really liked. I had never done a night time render, so I took it as a personal challenge and learning experience to try to replicate it as much as possible. Thanks for the inspiration! Here's the result.

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, AlvarD said:

Graham, a while back you took the plan that I was using to practice the exterior PBR renders and added some landscaping and did a night time render, which I really liked. I had never done a night time render, so I took it as a personal challenge and learning experience to try to replicate it as much as possible. Thanks for the inspiration! Here's the result.

 

Nicely done Alvar , the starry sky is a nice touch....

 

One suggestion would be a nicer Texture for the Stone wall and perhaps a bump map for it , a BM for the sidewalk would help add to the realism too.

 

M.